Founding Member PaulS Posted May 27, 2021 Founding Member Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 Another nail in the coffin for EVs.... Just got a VAT circular saying: VAT and recharging electric vehicles New guidance clarifies HMRC's position on the VAT treatment of charging electric vehicles. Costs of using charging points in public places are subject to VAT at the standard rate without any exemption or reduced rate relief. The reduced rate of VAT continues to apply to supplies of electricity to an individual’s home though. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted May 27, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 wow ! So a 30p per kw gets 20% on top ???...36p Let's see, about 3 or 4 miles per kw. Let's give them some leeway, 4 miles...is 36p. So 9p per mile... Or if it does 3 miles per kw.. 12p per mile.... My jazz does 50mpg....average town and country driving. About 11.4p per mile..... Electric Renault Zoe.... 25k to buy when discounts applied Honda Jazz 2020 ( not hybrid) 15k......... To be fair I presume there is 5% vat already on the public electric chargers ?? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted May 27, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 Seems to be Instavolt that is affected, putting their rate up from 35p upto 40p ........ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Mc Posted May 27, 2021 Report Share Posted May 27, 2021 I'd rather have £10k in pocket still and not have the lottery of owning a renogo. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted May 28, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 I think this is the only time i've been glad to see full VAT applied to anything! We have to pay it petrol so why not on electric for EVs? They still use the roads but pay no VED (or at least a heavily reduced rate), they've effectively been getting discounted fuel so about time they paid up and looked big. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted May 28, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 29 minutes ago, Laird_Scooby said: I think this is the only time i've been glad to see full VAT applied to anything! We have to pay it petrol so why not on electric for EVs? They still use the roads but pay no VED (or at least a heavily reduced rate), they've effectively been getting discounted fuel so about time they paid up and looked big. Agreed but the trouble here is once that goes through its only a short step to upping the 5% on standard electric bills to 20% on the basis " well everyone is charging at home now so we want the money" !!!!! Remember the "cheap" water meter ? Until the majority have one. Remember the promise "diesel will always be 2p litre cheaper " until everyone has bought diesels. Remember the pv panels, "help the emissions, generate electricity at home" making none pv owners pay towards the subsidy Remember the current mantra, road tax increase by inflation only, except they are not. Remember when vat was introduced after we joined the common market, 8%, 12.5%, 15%, 17.5% now 20%, .....22% anyone?? Remember council tax paying for the general services, now it has police precept, fire precept , parish council precept, social care precept, extra charges for green bins,,,,,,even MORE bins with all those extra lorries running around. Khan and his expansion of traffic control in the name of emissions....now Birmingham, Bath, Bristol and others no doubt will follow the "easy money" route Those in so called "authority " positions supposedly elected by their peers continually abuse their position. OK, soapbox back under the stairs...but you get where I am going, we , the people , are being royally feked .... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted May 28, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, PTR200S said: you get where I am going we , the people , are being royally feked .... TARFU in fact! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted May 28, 2021 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 Its the public sector cushy number job brigade out in force. They have to be seen to be doing something to earn their pay rises and gold plated enhanced pensions... There must be SOME good public servants outside the NHS but around my area any good ones seem to have died out - even GM Police are in special measures. If anyone knows a good public servant, please let me know.... Perhaps the public servants should put more effort into actually looking after the public - the NHS do! Well mostly... Try getting in to see your GP for example... 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted May 30, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 On 5/28/2021 at 6:45 PM, PaulS said: Its the public sector cushy number job brigade out in force. They have to be seen to be doing something to earn their pay rises and gold plated enhanced pensions... There must be SOME good public servants outside the NHS but around my area any good ones seem to have died out - even GM Police are in special measures. If anyone knows a good public servant, please let me know.... Perhaps the public servants should put more effort into actually looking after the public - the NHS do! Well mostly... Try getting in to see your GP for example... NHS....no longer for the people, run by numpties parachuted in from unrelated businesses, doctors surgeries sold off, dentist same, trusts selling off facilties to other trusts ! ,,,,other half has had enough, out by the end of the year along with half the rest of the department due to rigid and useless management. The way today is to create none jobs that do nothing for anyone except the creators. Take all the hospital staff out to the carpark ( yet another revenue source !) on Monday morning....only when they are required to do a job for the public are they allowed back in. Come Friday all those still in the carpark get the DCM !!! Why Friday you ask, its a 24/7 service, how many of the none job people work Saturday/ Sunday??? Exactly , NONE !!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted May 30, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 3 hours ago, PTR200S said: The way today is to create none jobs that do nothing for anyone except the creators. That will be their ultimate downfall, what use are managers when there's nothing left to manage because they've forced the good workers out? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member Retro Rich Posted June 1, 2021 Founding Member Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 Interesting link on bbc news this morning. Thoughts? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57253947 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted June 1, 2021 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 And just how do people charge their cars when they live in blocks of flats or rows of terraced houses?.... Where do the cables go ? - How many roads have to be dug up to lay new power cables and put in millions of charge points. How long will the recharging queues at motorway service stations be??? Stuck in a traffic jam, heater on, etc.... how long for before one has to get out & push. Sure, electric cars - like milk floats - have their short range uses - like the school run -for some. But wait until winter when one has the heater on, lights on, wipers on, heated seats on etc. Guess we will see loads of flat battery cars at the side of the roads until people get used to the real life range if they ever get fully charged. OK, so some makers will only offer electric cars - and for sure they will get a loyal following. But I guess other makes, such as Dacia might well see a surge in sales until they are banned form selling their wares. I tried hiring an electric car and although feasible, I was told I had to return it fully charged. Not owbning an electric car, nor having a card for a charger scheme, I would have had to leave teh car on charge via my home 13A socket - which would take 20hrs to charge teh battery.... Not ideal for a rental car. Go to a hotel or holiday cottage? Same problem, use teh car or charge it, but not both! Sorry, the issues are too great for me to consider even renting an electric car - I will be using fossil fuel cars until hydrogen or other sensible fuel cars come along - or I become incapable of driving... or teh fuel supply is finally turned off everywhere. One actual advantage of electric vehicles is the reduced noise from trucks, busses etc suffered by those living on through roads - but that point is rarely made 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted June 1, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, PaulS said: One actual advantage of electric vehicles is the reduced noise from trucks, busses etc suffered by those living on through roads - but that point is rarely made Not for long though, from what i understand they will be fitting a noise machine to simulate engine noise because people can't hear them coming and they have to prevent pedestrian deaths. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted June 1, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Retro Rich said: Interesting link on bbc news this morning. Thoughts? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57253947 True, the S curve thought but then again another report is saying the cost to the public is enormous, taking three years at least to get your money back , electric against petrol...Vauxhall Corsa electric quoted as not even close to break even at three years !! This all follows Polestar (Volvo) report last year saying that its 50k miles in the EV before the petrol / electric breaks CO2 disparity breaks even. So on cost AND emissions electric is struggling....in another "report" ( !!!! ) even just piddly small EV cars charging for two hours a day on a home socket ( about 35 miles?) will need 120,000 MW.... Current (pun intended ! ) electric output on the wind farms of this country last year amounted to just 6000MW.......PV at lot less and any other power producing source doesn't fit the green agenda anyway. 🌳 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted June 1, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Laird_Scooby said: Not for long though, from what i understand they will be fitting a noise machine to simulate engine noise because people can't hear them coming and they have to prevent pedestrian deaths. They already have !! Not sure of the legislation on it, can't be ar$$ed looking it up either, but they have to have some form of noise for low speed town trips? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Subscriber’s davebrads Posted June 1, 2021 Site Subscriber’s Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 As we can't carry on burning fossil fuels without terminally destroying the planet and electric vehicles are clearly not a quick fix by any means we will have to all get used to riding bikes. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted June 1, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, davebrads said: As we can't carry on burning fossil fuels without terminally destroying the planet and electric vehicles are clearly not a quick fix by any means we will have to all get used to riding bikes. Got my e bike and just converted one to e power as well so ok here !! plus still got my pedal hard bike !! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted June 1, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 This might rain on the EV owners parade : https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35577611/porsche-synthetic-efuel-clean-emissions-testing/ Hopefully comes in at a sensible price too! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Subscriber’s davebrads Posted June 1, 2021 Site Subscriber’s Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 On the face of it hydrogen fuel would solve the problem of fuelling vehicles very neatly, but the big problem to be overcome is that it is very ineficient There are big losses involved with the production of hydrogen which would double the amount of energy needed to be produced compared to battery driven vehicles. from VW 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted June 1, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 The Porsche efuel seems to be a synthetic compound, not sure on the exact composition but if it's affordable and gives reasonable performance that would also imply they had found ways round the inefficiencies of production. Not much synergy on the VAG Group though, unless they're hedging their bets on what sells and what doesn't........... again! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted June 1, 2021 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 Maybe there are presently big losses with hydrogen fuel production (likely to decrease as technologies improve) but there would be no need to dig up roads to lay new cables (newly made for the purpose) to deliver electricity to all the homes needing a charger. Nor need to make and install (and change) the chargers which seem to be different whenever one changes to a new e car... Factor that into the efficiency / cost equation too... Heard that there is a new hydrogen cartidge system in development such that one can simply install a new cartidge in a few minutes when teh first one gets used up. Promising. Is that the Porsche system? 7 hours ago, davebrads said: will have to all get used to riding bikes. Well I for one don't want to pedal the bus or truck or train or plane or ship. And delivery vans would have a real problem - the poor drivers are already worn out on their overly ambitious driving rounds - think how much worse they would feel after pedalling their vans around a 60 mile or so circuit every day... The thing is sooner or later fossil fuels will run out even if there was no panic to stop using them so a replacement has to be found for current transport else we will have to revert to the likes of horse & cart, sailing ships, airships, carrier pigeon, pogo sticks and space hoppers etc. Amazon would then have a big problem with next day delivery.... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted June 1, 2021 Moderators Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, PaulS said: The thing is sooner or later fossil fuels will run out You're not wrong and we've known this for decades and the technology has been around to synthesise things like oil for decades as well. Shouldn't be too big a step to synthesise fuel as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted January 13, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted January 13, 2022 On 5/27/2021 at 11:17 PM, PTR200S said: Seems to be Instavolt that is affected, putting their rate up from 35p upto 40p ........ Just checked the local Instavolt price, seems to have gone up to 45p kwh. Gridserve have jacked their price to 40p for their public charger.... EV do about 3 or 4 miles per kwh depending on cold , how fast, heater usage etc so fluctuate their miles per kwh just as petrol engines do. So a cost say mid point of 3.5 per kwh...total cost £5.49 on a 48 mile journey. So let's see, taking a petrol car that does 48mpg.....current cost is now, on E5 superunleaded, £6.91 a gallon. (152 x 4.545 litres ) Now lets look at gridserve costing... 45p a kwh...£6.17 ..... Obviously it's cheaper than an ice vehicle using superunleaded but knock off 5 mpg and use E10.. 142 a litre x 4.545 litres to gallon, £6.45 So not much in it , differential wise, now unless home charging is used but even that is 25p a kwh on average now...or 5p if you are on the cheap rate SUBSIDISED BY THE REST OF US, in which case it still cheap..sort of. on the other hand buying an EV at 25k , twice the price of a petrol model, I can get a lot of miles out of £12,000 price difference.....and don't forget that 12k is funding the DIFFERENCE between the EV fuel cost and the petrol cost. At a £1 per gallon difference that's 12000 pounds , divide by £7, over 1700 gallons of motoring which equates to over 82k miles at 48mpg... 10 years of motoring maybe ? At that point is the EV battery knackered? Maybe, maybe not but it's a big bill for a new battery, fitted. My petrol cars go much further than ten years..... Of course if you just charge at home then differential increases and your "free" money for petrol motoring drops...... The other cost of petrol that EV owners don't get at the moment is road tax, ved for the pedantic, so I guess that's another cost that is difficult to equate. Something else to consider, all the media bleating about government revenue dropping because of the switch to EV....the public chargers are now rated at 20% vat....straight into the government coffers, not as much as petrol obviously but still a mitigating tax against ice car taxation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted February 1, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 1, 2022 New Shell EV Station in Fulham charging 49p per kwh....PLUS £2.85 connection fee !!!!! Equivalent to over £7 a "gallon" !!!!!!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 1, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 1, 2022 So much for BEVs being cheaper to run! With the stop-start-stop nature of London traffic, they'll run out of power in no time at all and have to recharge more frequently than they think too. Maybe then they'll wake up and get rid of that ridiculous mayor they have! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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