Flat battery again.

[PTR200S]

😢 twice this last week the battery has gone flat after leaving the van open whilst loading or cleaning,  as if there is no capacity. 

Checked alternator too, again, 14.81 charging.

No problem starting normally, today I sat outside a mates house,  talking through the open door, sidelights and dash cam running.

Twenty minutes later, no start, mate had jump pack and it kicked into life no problem. 

Just got home, taken the battery off , drop unit says OK but mid range, put it on proper charger and it immediately jumped to 10amps charge rate...flat obviously. 

Its a Halfords 4 year warranty battery that came with Elly after imported, got receipt so halfords visit tomorrow .

Anyone dealt with halfords with battery replacement? Any problems?

[Kelvin]

26 minutes ago, PTR200S said:

😢 twice this last week the battery has gone flat after leaving the van open whilst loading or cleaning,  as if there is no capacity. 

Checked alternator too, again, 14.81 charging.

No problem starting normally, today I sat outside a mates house,  talking through the open door, sidelights and dash cam running.

Twenty minutes later, no start, mate had jump pack and it kicked into life no problem. 

Just got home, taken the battery off , drop unit says OK but mid range, put it on proper charger and it immediately jumped to 10amps charge rate...flat obviously. 

Its a Halfords 4 year warranty battery that came with Elly after imported, got receipt so halfords visit tomorrow .

Anyone dealt with halfords with battery replacement? Any problems?

Lots of boaters used them due to their no quibble warranty but since 2019 they've been a lot tougher on that score. It does vary store to store I believe.

[hughezee]

58 minutes ago, PTR200S said:

Anyone dealt with halfords with battery replacement? Any problems?

Never had any problems in the past, but like Kelvin says they're toughening up on things, even one of my local motor factors became difficult with battery claims and I never went back to them again after one incident.

[PTR200S]

OK, question:

Having taken the battery off the van , how do I lock the rear tailgate on the Elysion,  manually?

I can lock both sliding rear doors manually by pushing lock down on the inside, passenger door the same, drivers door using a key.

The rear door does not appear to have any manual locking mechanism??????  Can't be right, surely.?.

Owners manual,  no, Japanese!!!!! Even if I could find the correct section in a very big book !!!!

[hughezee]

28 minutes ago, PTR200S said:

The rear door does not appear to have any manual locking mechanism??????  Can't be right, surely.?.

Very common TBH, leave bonnet open, lock car normally remove the battery and the doors & boot will remain locked...

[PaulS]

Have you put an ammeter between teh battery and feeds to see if there is a drain with everything turned off?

Also when you park up (or turn off the engine), try measuring the battery voltage, then again before you try starting and see the drop[ over the time period.  I have previously found faulty sensors draining the battery - also semi shorting lights... also rusting horn ring....  But I have also had 3 new batteries on 3 different cars in teh last 2 years when each was a battery problem.

Interestingky, I swapped out my Coupe's battery earlier this year but kept the old one on a regular charge cycle in my cellar ever since - but now it has definietly lost a cell (it charges up to 13.5v but overnight without charger connected and  with no load drops to around 11.5v) so it was definitely a dying battery and well worth the swap out.

[PTR200S]

Well, according to halfords the battery is "ok" not tiptop but "ok" and therefore no replacement. 

According to my drop tester it is "ok" too but only just...might have to flatten it a few times !!!

However,  I am getting fluctuations in the alternator reading now, sometimes voltage showing 14.8, then 12.6, 12.4, 12.3, for a minute or so then 14.6, 14.7, 14.8, back down to 12.5 etc....

Question really is can that be right ? The battery is maybe half charged now so I would expect max charge until full then floating.?..

[PaulS]

Have you got another battery you can swap out with?  If so, compare battery and charging....  Will the battery  from your Jazz etc fit - albeit temporarily?

[PTR200S]

21 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Have you got another battery you can swap out with?  If so, compare battery and charging....  Will the battery  from your Jazz etc fit - albeit temporarily?

Good idea, maybe the Coupe battery will fit, the Coupe is off the road at moment anyway. 

It seems odd the charge drops to battery state of 12.6 so frequently. 

[Brett]

Very odd indeed 

normally the alternator are smart and can sense when the battery needs full charge.

only thing I can think of is maybe a bad Earth somewhere 

[Laird_Scooby]

7 hours ago, PTR200S said:

I am getting fluctuations in the alternator reading now, sometimes voltage showing 14.8, then 12.6, 12.4, 12.3, for a minute or so then 14.6, 14.7, 14.8, back down to 12.5 etc....

 

5 hours ago, PTR200S said:

It seems odd the charge drops to battery state of 12.6 so frequently. 

If it does the same with the Coupe battery (i suspect it will) then the fault is almost certainly the rectifier inside the alternator giving up the ghost. You could try touching (carefully!) the alternator casing a few minutes after a cold start or if you don't fancy touching it, spit on it. If your spit sizzles and evaporates in seconds there's too much heat caused by (probably) the rectifier short-circuiting internally and providing a non-resistive path for the windings to short circuit.

Also a defective/dying battery can cause similar problems and also give rough running as the PGM-Fi ECU can increase/decreaase the charge rate and it can go into Limp Mode if the charging voltage isn't high enough.

[Andy Mc]

Bear in mind for fitment that its US spec in the coupe, so terminals are the other way round.

[hughezee]

1 hour ago, Andy Mc said:

Bear in mind for fitment that its US spec in the coupe, so terminals are the other way round.

Good point 👍

9 hours ago, PTR200S said:

However,  I am getting fluctuations in the alternator reading now, sometimes voltage showing 14.8, then 12.6, 12.4, 12.3, for a minute or so then 14.6, 14.7, 14.8, back down to 12.5 etc....

Hope it's just the battery Pete, I had weird idle and voltage irregularity with my RA6 oddy. New alternator sorted it, just for reference and assuming your alternator is a MITSUBISHI AHGA62 model, its available from AS-PL same brand I've fitted to the oddy and I am very happy with it, autodoc sell them allot less than Honda https://www.autodoc.co.uk/as-pl/10590380

[PaulS]

10 hours ago, Andy Mc said:

Bear in mind for fitment that its US spec in the coupe, so terminals are the other way round.

I made up some special "jump leads" for just that purpose - in use they look a mess perhaps, but with those leads (big bolt one endto fit existing lead clamps, battery clips the other end and starter wire in the middle, I can use any battery as a temporary measure.  Once made, these live in the Coupe boot as a "just in case" measure if I get a dead battery out and about....  As is said, not everyone carries the "wrong way around terminal" batteries in stock.... and teh existing battery leads are simply too short to correctly fit UK batteries.

[PTR200S]

13 hours ago, Andy Mc said:

Bear in mind for fitment that its US spec in the coupe, so terminals are the other way round.

Yep, battery terminals on the opposite side so no substitute !!!

[PTR200S]

Well, bizarre stuff this morning, did around 10 miles in one go, 14.7v all the way..........was about an hour in a job then back in the van to do around 8 miles, still reading 14.6/7. 30 mins giving a mate a lift with some flags and then back in the van for the daily Electricfix visit  🙃  then another stop again to pick some more items up and then around 3 miles before stopped again for an hour or so, back in the van, voltage now reading around 14.4............. one flip to 12.9 then back to 14.4  ...6 miles back home.... Sat on idle and quite happy at 14.4.   

Now I think about this and the amount of stop start, short journey stuff I do in a day perhaps its killing the battery slowly............even the oil is turning black in around 3k miles.....town driving is just shit.

No idea what is going on now.... however, it could be the alternator rectifier pack is suspect....may account for leakage of battery over a period of time though the diodes.

[hughezee]

4 hours ago, PTR200S said:

Now I think about this and the amount of stop start, short journey stuff I do in a day perhaps its killing the battery slowly

its probably crossed your mind already, maybe worth looking at a parasitic draw test, only since mentioned leaving the van open whilst loading or cleaning, something isn't be timing out as it should?

[PTR200S]

1 hour ago, hughezee said:

its probably crossed your mind already, maybe worth looking at a parasitic draw test, only since mentioned leaving the van open whilst loading or cleaning, something isn't be timing out as it should?

Yes definitely worth doing, PaulS mentioned it too, just need to find time to fiddle with it preferably when it's not raining  🙄

[hughezee]

26 minutes ago, PTR200S said:

Yes definitely worth doing, PaulS mentioned it too, just need to find time to fiddle with it preferably when it's not raining  🙄

Yeah spotted Pauls comment(Thanks @PaulS), but I was suggesting rather than closing everything up and checking, which doesn't appear to be the problem??? See what systems are pulling the amps after 3-5mins, I had a central locking controller unit on a Shuttle that never pulled anything when locked up or the doors closed but it was faulty.🤪 Basically, when not locked and the unlock was activated remotely it would ground out and flattened the battery within an hour or so, it was an intermittent issue, still, a right pain for the owner as he did catering for events so the boot or doors opened for extended periods.🙄

Always a little hesitant to reply to you @PTR200S or Daves @Laird_Scooby questions, as your both very capable and don't wish to patronise.😜🖐️

[PTR200S]

1 hour ago, hughezee said:

Always a little hesitant to reply to you @PTR200S or Daves @Laird_Scooby questions, as your both very capable and don't wish to patronise.😜🖐️

Don't  think that at all !!!!

Any help, suggestions,  all gratefully received as it quite often sets one off down another track that may not have been obvious.  Or indeed gets one off the circular route solution that is so easy to hooked on without looking at the alternatives. 

Keep it coming !!

[Laird_Scooby]

What Pete said! ^^^^^^^

[PTR200S]

Bugger ! Two years down the line, albeit with over six months off the road, flat battery again.

Never got to the bottom of it the last time but its been OK since,,,well when it wasn't off the road with accident damage. 🙃

but been no problems since it went back on the road a few months back...with a new battery. 

There is definitely something drawing current in the sleep mode...obviously whatever it is that is draining the battery,  it is definetly awake !!!!

Although,  just thinking about it, had all doors and tailgate open for a while showing a mate seat configuration......

Out early, 7am, tomorrow morning so charged the battery today, put it back in van and first off tomorrow I will connect it...tomorrow afternoon I am back on tracking whatever the draw is.

First plan is to pull each fuse in turn again to try and identify that circuit that is causing the problem. 

[PaulS]

Might be asking granny to suck eggs here, but just in case I am wrong:

Have you got a DC clamp meter (goes around power leads at the battery)?  If not, can you put an ammeter between the battery and battery lead?  If so, take a reading with everything turned off and doors locked closed.  Is there any draw?  Likley so, as clock , alarm etc running. Then check one load at a time - specifically looking for expected current draw related to the item switched on.  Also note anything that when switched on does not draw any more current - if so that is the most likely suspect.  I have had door courtesy light switches and radio etc continue to draw when supposedly off...

When all else fails, can you fit a battery isolator until you do find the offending bit?

[Laird_Scooby]

Besides Pauls advice above Pete, i'm guessing the alernator is a Nippon-Denso unit? If so, try disconnecting the battery lead from the alternator overnight (don't forget to reconnect before driving off!) and wrapping some insulation tape over the end of the lead for safety.

Why you may ask? Simple, it seems, both from my personal experience with the Sterling and from other cars i've known with intermittent current drains/charging problems, therre is a problem with many of the recifier packs in N-D alternators. Why i don't know, i just know it happens. Disconnecting the battery overnight will eliminate this as the fault, if it still goes flat it's not the alternator. Another tell-tale is the alternator gets warm (hot with a capital F!) without the engine running or sometimes very soon after starting - warmer than it has any right to get.

[PTR200S]

17 hours ago, PaulS said:

Might be asking granny to suck eggs here, but just in case I am wrong:

Have you got a DC clamp meter (goes around power leads at the battery)?  If not, can you put an ammeter between the battery and battery lead?  If so, take a reading with everything turned off and doors locked closed.  Is there any draw?  Likley so, as clock , alarm etc running. Then check one load at a time - specifically looking for expected current draw related to the item switched on.  Also note anything that when switched on does not draw any more current - if so that is the most likely suspect.  I have had door courtesy light switches and radio etc continue to draw when supposedly off...

When all else fails, can you fit a battery isolator until you do find the offending bit?

Funnily enough I bought an isolator for something else and you reminded me with that comment..I didn't use it so just tried it now,,wrong post size 😢

Still, on with the testing this afternoon,  in the rain, why does it have rain when you are playing in the fuse box ??!!!!

My dc clamp meter just wasn't having any of it so I dug out the old digital 20 year old meter and hooked it in series with the negative post and lead.

Bloody hell  !!!  0.68 amps  !! or 680 milliamp....way, way over 30 to 50 ish I would expect.  Pulled all the underbonnet  fuses one by one...nothing, and to make matters worse the last fuse was a 40amp cube fuse with pinged out as I pulled....disappeared down the side of the engine bay , ffs......its the nearside electric sliding door one ...

can't find it...Ordered another one 🙄🙄🙄🙄🤑🤑🤑

Started on internal fusebox, no1 fuse is the radio...no joy....pulled fuse 2, amps dropped to 0.11.......haven't gone any further yet because the fuse is marked "backup" it's a 10amp. The owners jap manual confirms "backup" but doesn't specify its use.

No idea what its for but it is next to the radio/amp fuse so maybe the memory backup ???

All I can do now is try it and see what isn't working....