welland99 Posted September 21, 2020 Report Share Posted September 21, 2020 I was very sorry to discover a worrying oil leak from my coupe recently. What's worse is that I have not managed to identify the source of the leak yet. There has been some very slow seapage from the sump for years. When I say very slow, i mean seriously slow. A wipe over the sump with a rag every couple of months has been sufficient to prevent any oil drips on the path. Now, the sump is dripping! a lot! If I wipe the drips, they are back within a couple of hours. So, the oil leak could be a sudden deterioration of the porous oil sump, or, I am wondering if it could be coming from the end of the engine (gearbox end). The end of the sump nearest the gearbox is hidden behind the gearbox mounting (a cast alloy ring) and oil is dripping from this alloy ring too. Because of the location of this alloy ring, I cannot see if the oil is dripping from the sump onto the alloy ring, or coming from higher up on the engine and running onto the sump and the alloy ring. I'm going to have to try to give it a very good clean and then watch like a hawk to see if I can spot where it's coming from. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted September 22, 2020 Moderators Report Share Posted September 22, 2020 Give the areas of concern a good clean with brake cleaner first.......worth checking around the rocker covers as well just in case its one of those before you get panicky about a main seal. Have you checked the sump bolts for missing or loose ones ? Don't heave on them though, they will only be a few foot pounds torque on them but lots of cars do get loose sump bolts over time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted September 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2020 2 hours ago, PTR200S said: worth checking around the rocker covers as well just in case its one of those before you get panicky about a main seal. I only have one of these.... 😭 Anyway, the top of the engine is dry, and I've checked the oil filter is on tight enough as well - no leaks there either. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted September 22, 2020 Moderators Report Share Posted September 22, 2020 Good news that the top end is dry..... have a check at those sump bolts..... I presume its not the sump plug leaking and it actually blowing back up around the sump pan when driving? When you say the drips come back in a couple of hours do you mean if it is just left standing? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted September 22, 2020 Administrators Report Share Posted September 22, 2020 Following from Pete's suggestions and assuming the sump isn't just rusted through or the sump bolt thread isn't damaged, the F-series engine does suffer from oil leaks... Most leaks can be resolved with using the Smith & Allan Ultra 10w-30 Engine Oil - Mineral, which we have discussed before as even off the shelf 10W40 contains additives that meet the needs of much newer engines and as a result, are thinner than the base oil. Many occasions I have used other oils and the engine ran well but it started to leak out from various places. Nevertheless your leak sound more serious than the occasional drip or minor mist of oil. So my suggestion is to replace the oil and preferably the filter too and add a leak stop additive, the Lucas or Wynns work well. Yet all to often many of these are dubbed snake oils but I have had great success with persistent drips reduced to almost nothing and some cases they completely dried up. https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/wynns-engine-oil-stop-leak-325-ml-555770610? https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=lucas oil stop leak&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-154085-019499-4&mkcid=2&keyword=lucas oil stop leak Additionally I have a suspicion the downpipe you had fitted is not double-skinned like the OEM and the part that passes directly under the sump is effectively cooking that area so I would also suggest an exhaust wrap on the pipe to shield the engine from the extra heat... https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=heat+wrap+exhaust 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted September 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2020 8 hours ago, PTR200S said: Good news that the top end is dry..... have a check at those sump bolts..... I presume its not the sump plug leaking and it actually blowing back up around the sump pan when driving? When you say the drips come back in a couple of hours do you mean if it is just left standing? I have not checked the tightness of the sump bolts, but I can see that those in view are dry. And the gasket is sealing well too. The gearbox mounting hides one end of the sump, so I cannot see all of the bolts and all of the gasket. The sump plug is tight and not leaking. Yes, there is oil leaking when the engine is not running. In fact the leak seems worse when the engine is not, presumably as the oil is thinner. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted September 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2020 So, I have news to report. I gave the sump a good wipe down this morning and then left it for a few hours to see what happened. When I returned, I noticed a patch of rust glistening on the sump. When I scratched it with a screwdriver, a flake of rust the size of my little finger nail fell off, and then I could see the oil seeping out. Hopefully this is the sole cause of the oil leak. I suppose that counts as good news, so now for the less-good news. The location of this leak is behind the exhaust front pipe, thus making a repair in this location difficult. The gap between the sump and the pipe is too small to get my finger through, but I can get a rag on the tip of my finger to clean the leaky patch. Interesting what Stu wrote about the exhaust. I'm afraid that I cannot recall if the old exhaust had a double skin, or if this new one is a single skin. But the close proximity of the exhaust to the sump will limit repair options. What to do.....? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted September 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2020 ...... well, if there was a leaky patch that was not close to the exhaust, I could have tried a fibre glass patch. I have heard a reIiable testimony that this does work if the sump is de-oiled and rubbed down first. But I do not know if the fibreglass resin would be stable in a hot place so close to the exhaust. I rang my local parts factor to see if they had a Magic heat proof and oil proof paint, but all they could offer was regular VHT paint. I would not expect this to be suitable. Any ideas? Might need to get a patch welded on. Worth noting that the mot expires on 1st December. So, little more than a month until the mot zone arrives. If you have any ideas about some kind of putty that will hold for a month....... or I could just live with it for the next few weeks...... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted September 23, 2020 Administrators Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 2 hours ago, welland99 said: I'm afraid that I cannot recall if the old exhaust had a double skin The OEM downpipes are doubled in the lower part, never seen an aftermarket replicated this way, hence the shield suggestion... 2 hours ago, welland99 said: Any ideas? Might need to get a patch welded on. I would just remove it and get a new sump or maybe get welded, if it comes off ok? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted September 23, 2020 Moderators Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 If definitely the sump I would go for a replacement, as Stu says. Welding a patch on is likely to open up a bigger hole apart from the fact the sump needs to come off to be cleaned, to do a proper repair anyway...oil is a pain when trying to weld , seems to seep out of the porous metal. Can you get the sump off easily? Any chassis/bits in the way? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member AhsyV6 Posted September 23, 2020 Founding Member Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 Sorry to hear about the leak and issues. You have just prompted me in to looking in to my leak in more detail. Also just ordered some Smith and Allen oil and will order some stop leak of some kind. good luck 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted September 23, 2020 Administrators Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 8 hours ago, AhsyV6 said: You have just prompted me in to looking in to my leak in more detail. J-series engine isn't as bad as the F-series for leaks, but age catches up with everything 😒 if your leak is one of the main seals the leak stop should improve things. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted September 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 22 hours ago, hughezee said: I would just remove it and get a new sump or maybe get welded, if it comes off ok? Stu, What sort of job is it to remove a sump? Obviously the exhaust front pipe will need to be removed, but that should be easy on mine as the exhaust is almost new. My main query is the gearbox, the mountings for which overlap the end of the sump. My initial idea to repair the old one was partly based upon my idea that a new sump might be hard to find and/or be pretty pricey. A quick look online suggests that availability and price might not be as bad as I thought. Although ECP do not have one listed, I found this website which has quite a few: https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/car-brands/spare-parts-honda/accord-vi-cg-ck/10027/10589/oil-pan.html#10102 Do you think that one is right for my CG4? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted September 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 17 hours ago, PTR200S said: Can you get the sump off easily? Any chassis/bits in the way? Waiting to hear from Stu about the gearbox mounting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member Brett Posted September 24, 2020 Founding Member Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 I’m not sure on your car but I think Stu said on my 8th gen that the front subframe had to be loosened to get access 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted September 24, 2020 Administrators Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 22 hours ago, welland99 said: Waiting to hear from Stu about the gearbox mounting. I guess you are wondering about the part circled in red on the picture below, this plate is held on with 3-4 bolts 14mm & 17mm socket required (depends on model) once removed it will give you access the remaining 10mm bolts on the sump. Also found this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oil-Sump-Pan-K-2924470-KLOKKERHOLM-for-Honda/202926515947? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted September 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 On 9/24/2020 at 10:53 PM, hughezee said: I guess you are wondering about the part circled in red on the picture below, this plate is held on with 3-4 bolts 14mm & 17mm socket required (depends on model) once removed it will give you access the remaining 10mm bolts on the sump. Stu, yes I guess that the part in the red circle is the bit I'm talking about, though it looks different on your photo to mine. It could be just the perspective in the photo, and because it is zoomed in, it's difficult to see. Is the photo taken of a CG4 manual like mine? I'm planning the cheapest easiest fix first to see how it lasts. Epoxy putty seems like a viable solution, and there are some high temperature variants available that should be more stable close to the exhaust. Quiksteel has a big range, including this: https://www.quiksteel.com/16562tri-xtreme-heat-putty/...... but I can't find anyone selling it. Seen this on ebay, which seems like best (available) option: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-Magic-Quiksteel-Xtreme-Temperature-Fast-Repair-Epoxy-Putty-Weld-Filler-3oz/254572770059?epid=653866413&hash=item3b45b8330b:g:j~YAAOSwMXldYqOF Anybody used epoxy putty before? or this, which is cheaper: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JB-Weld-HighHeat-Epoxy-Putty-57-g-JB8297-Heat-Temperature-Resistant-JB-WELD/383241175167?epid=10033702429&hash=item593af4407f:g:tssAAOSw4fhdubjK of course, to use the putty, I'll need to drain oil, abrade surface, degrease, etc... I don't need a solution that lasts for ever (eg new sump), just need it to last until some other bigger problem arises....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted September 26, 2020 Moderators Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 I think you might find the oil will continue to seep "through " the metal for some time...if you are going this route I would drain oil, clean pan then leave it overnight and then clean again....you may get lucky and the epoxy will stick.... Sorry to say but sump off is a better option, it may take as long to clean the sump to ensure no oil left so epoxy will take properly, plus overnight time, as it would to get the sump off.. Good luck though, hope the epoxy works. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2020 Fixed the oil leak on the sump today with some high temperature epoxy putty. Let's see how long it lasts. 🤞 Was going to post a few pics, but can't see how to do it on a mobile phone. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted October 3, 2020 Moderators Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 Might pay to get some exhaust wrap and do your downpipes to help with the heat. It also helps with the exhaust gases too and reduces engine bay temperature. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Subscriber’s davebrads Posted October 4, 2020 Site Subscriber’s Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 My coupe has a leak on the sump when I bought it - mines a 2.0 too so maybe it's a weakness of this engine? As I had bought it from a dealer I took it back expecting a new sump but he had it bodged with some epoxy, I know this because I collected it from his mechanic and he told me what he'd done. I was not entirely happy but as I hadn't paid a lot for the car I didn't think I would get very far making a fuss. The sump hadn't leaked since, and I've had it for over 7 years now. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted October 4, 2020 Moderators Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 Going back some years now, there used to be a product available for fuel tanks that had sprung leaks through being porous. I'm wondering firstly if this product is still available and secondly if it would work on the sumps. Obviously the sump would need to be removed and cleaned but i don't see how it wouldn't work and if it's good enough to seal petrol tanks, it should seal sumps as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 3 hours ago, davebrads said: My coupe has a leak on the sump when I bought it - mines a 2.0 too so maybe it's a weakness of this engine? As I had bought it from a dealer I took it back expecting a new sump but he had it bodged with some epoxy, I know this because I collected it from his mechanic and he told me what he'd done. I was not entirely happy but as I hadn't paid a lot for the car I didn't think I would get very far making a fuss. The sump hadn't leaked since, and I've had it for over 7 years now. Excellent. That gives me confidence. However, my repair is just above the exhaust, so heat may be an issue - though I did use high temperature epoxy. Whereabouts is your patch? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 3 hours ago, Laird_Scooby said: Going back some years now, there used to be a product available for fuel tanks that had sprung leaks through being porous. I'm wondering firstly if this product is still available and secondly if it would work on the sumps. Obviously the sump would need to be removed and cleaned but i don't see how it wouldn't work and if it's good enough to seal petrol tanks, it should seal sumps as well. The main difference being heat: the heat of the oil, and in my case the heat from the exhaust too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Subscriber’s davebrads Posted October 4, 2020 Site Subscriber’s Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 In afraid that I've never looked for it, maybe I'll remember next time I'm under the car 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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