welland99 Posted October 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 The green key symbol on the rev counter is the light to look for I believe (immobiliser), it usually flashes when the key is inserted and goes off when started. Then when the key is turned off, it flashes again, presumably to confirm the immobiliser is active? Does it flash more than a couple of times?Of course, I forgot about that light . I guess that means that it does not flash very much. I'll pay closer attention to it from now on, in case it gives any clues. On the evidence of the last week, the starter has been working much better than it was in early September. It has worked perfectly at first or second turn of the key, so another starter is definitely off the shopping list for now. Whilst it is great that the problem has improved somewhat, it does give reduced opportunity for diagnosis. The joy of intermittent faults! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted October 8, 2015 Moderators Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Can't find the dropbopx link but the main feed to the starter isn't the little spade connector! That's the trigger wire that tells the solenoid to power up, pull the plunger in and put full battery voltage from the heavy cable going to the solenoid straight into the motor itself. The rubber boot is actually there to prevent accidental contact with metal tools although it keeps water splashes off. However it's not moisture tight so will let moisture and road salt and other things in. As such it could still be worthwhile checking it. If one side of the connector is corroded then it can be regarded as the whole connector is corroded. When the starter is turning the engine, it pulls somewhere in the region of 100A, lots more if it can't turn the engine (for example if the battery is too flat, the engine is siezed or whatever) so any corrosion is a problem. If it's only a 0.1 ohm resistance on that connector, when it's pulling 100A to try and turn the engine over, that dodgy joint is dropping 10V out of the 12v available. This will also heat the joint up resulting in higher resistance and higher volt drop and more power being dissipated (in the form of heat) in the joint.So as i'm sure you can see, they need to be spotless for the best possible chance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member Cryistic Posted October 8, 2015 Founding Member Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Before we go to far chasing wires and such like, check the battery voltage or swap a good battery off another car to see if it makes a difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Can't find the dropbopx linkHere it is again: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ybxmslm6glq4b6a/AADTxeTX0F7Yx2WXUQA5AWWVa?dl=0the main feed to the starter isn't the little spade connector! That's the trigger wire that tells the solenoid to power up, pull the plunger in and put full battery voltage from the heavy cable going to the solenoid straight into the motor itself.I agree, that's what I was trying to say. When the starter is turning the engine, it pulls somewhere in the region of 100A, lots more if it can't turn the engine (for example if the battery is too flat, the engine is siezed or whatever) so any corrosion is a problem. If it's only a 0.1 ohm resistance on that connector, when it's pulling 100A to try and turn the engine over, that dodgy joint is dropping 10V out of the 12v available. This will also heat the joint up resulting in higher resistance and higher volt drop and more power being dissipated (in the form of heat) in the joint.So as i'm sure you can see, they need to be spotless for the best possible chance.I'll have another look at the connectors at the weekend and make them as clean as I can. Thanks for your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Before we go to far chasing wires and such like, check the battery voltage or swap a good battery off another car to see if it makes a difference.Unfortunately, I don't have a spare battery at my disposal. But I do have some jumper leads handy. If it refuses to start again, I'll find another car to jumper onto and see if it makes any difference. I'll also check the battery voltage at the weekend. I have checked it recently, and although I can't remember what it was, it was definitely over 12v. In fact, I think I'll keep my test meter in the car to test the battery voltage if it plays up. I realise that voltage is not the only indicator of battery condition, but my impression is that the battery is fine, because when the starter works properly, it turns the engine quickly, the headlights stay bright when the engine is off, and when testing a month ago, I could start and stop the engine many times in a very short period without any noticeable drop in starter cranking speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted October 8, 2015 Moderators Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Thanks - that starter looks pretty good, especially the commutator - have you undercut it or was it already like that? Ah - my apologies, i interpreted what you said the wrong way. Wasn't sure if you meant it how it first sounded or the other way so went for the "wrong" one and explained anyway. Good thinking! I had an emissions problem with my Jeep because of a bad earth on the engine block. Cleaned it and they improved. The earth was only for the Lambda sensor as well! Just goes to show even a little thing can be effected by a bad earth and to be fair, it was a lot better than your earth was! You're welcome for the advice, it's what we're all here for, amongst other things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Had another fun weekend fiddling with this again. I may have made some progress in ruling out possible causes, but overall still baffled. I'll make my updates in short bullets below. To set the scene:Over the last couple of weeks, it's been behaving just as it has for the majority of the last couple of years. ie:sometimes it starts instantly at first attempt. Other times, 2nd or third attempt (on the failed attempts, the solenoid still clicks loudly)Occasionally, stirring the gear lever is needed, but it would always start in the end. Last week, it stood after the weekend until Thursday. On Thursday morning, it started instantly at first attempt. On Thursday afternoon, I needed to use strategy (3) to stir the gear lever after three failed attempts. On two further occasions that day it started at first attempt. On Friday it stood. Then the fun started on Saturday. Before I did anything, I checked the battery voltage. My digital reader told me 11.95v across the battery terminals. Then SWMBO wanted to go out and it wouldn't start. It persistently wouldn't start, even after numerous attempts of stirring the gear lever and retrying.....So, I got out the jumper leads and connected to my other car which has a bigger stronger battery. I thought this would be a good way to judge if the battery is causing the issue. When the jumper leads were connected, I remeasured the voltage across the battery and was getting 13.5v. Fingers and toes were crossed for a helpful outcome.Nothing changed. Still getting a strong click from the solenoid. After multiple further attempts to stir the gear lever, I gave up and sent her out in the other car. I'm thinking that I can now rule out the battery. (more to follow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted October 18, 2015 Moderators Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Sounds suspiciously like worn brushes in the starter motor. By stirring the gear lever when it needs a bit of effort to go in you're moving the input shaft of the gearbox and hence the flywheel. This will cause the starter pinion to rotate slightly as it engages which means the brushes will move slightly on the commutator, giving a better connection. How accessible is the starter normally? Could you hit it with a length of wood, a hammer handle or similar? This usually frees sticking brushes temporarily at least. You could use that as a diagnosis if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Now it's today. First of all I tried to start it, but still nothing changed. Loud clicking from the solenoid every time, but starter not turning. I rechecked the battery voltage and found it now at 12.2v. across the terminals. I also checked the voltage at the starter with my positive probe on the positive terminal at the starter and the negative probe on the casing of the starter. I still got 12.2v. Does this suggest that bad (corroded) connections are not to blame?I took the starter off and decided to re-check the earth strap that I had cleaned a couple of weeks ago. I discovered that although I had thoroughly cleaned the terminal on the end of the strap, i had forgotten to clean the bracket to which it attached. . Anyway maybe this was an irrelevant point in view of my voltage readings? The place that the earth strap connects is now nice and shiny and clean too. And I took the opportunity to polish up both the battery posts while I was at it. (And the insides of the battery connectors too!)I turned the starter motor gear by hand, just in case there was a bad segment in the commutator (though my photos show that this is in good nick). I had a good look at the starter ring on the flywheel in case there was a damaged section right by the starter motor. I could spot no damage and the ring seemed to be perfectly aligned. (It had crossed my mind that the solenoid clicking might have been caused by the gear hitting the side of the flywheel ring instead of meshing nicely. Thus, the solenoid would not have switched power to the motor and the starter would not turn. However, I could find no evidence that this had happened). I refitted the starter and tried to start it. Nothing changed. Still loud clicks from the solenoid every time. So, nothing I had done made any difference. Finally, I moved the gear lever into gear again, then back to neutral (just as I had done yesterday, and earlier today), but then at the very next attempt, it started instantly. Hallelujah! (But why..............) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Sounds suspiciously like worn brushes in the starter motor. By stirring the gear lever when it needs a bit of effort to go in you're moving the input shaft of the gearbox and hence the flywheel. This will cause the starter pinion to rotate slightly as it engages which means the brushes will move slightly on the commutator, giving a better connection.This is a good theory, but having seen the brushes, I am doubtful. Have you seen my photos numbered 4580 to 4583? The brushes all seemed quite long, and when I came to re-insert the pinion, I had to move each brush against its spring in order to get the commutator back into place. Also, as the pinion is clearly sliding (but not turning under the power of the motor), wouldn't this tend to jog the brushes a little? How accessible is the starter normally? Could you hit it with a length of wood, a hammer handle or similar? This usually frees sticking brushes temporarily at least. You could use that as a diagnosis if nothing else.Luckily, it's very accessible. Sitting right in front of me on the top of the gearbox when I open the bonnet. I could try doing this next time. But, I'm starting to lose patience, and may have to bite the bullet and take it somewhere for a second opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member Cryistic Posted October 18, 2015 Founding Member Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 It's an auto isnt it? so moving the selector up and down should no be moving anything with regards the input shaft if the box isnt upto pressure. The moving of the gear selector making the car start makes me think your gear selection safety cut out switch may have an intermittent fault and moving it up and down the selection range makes some connections come together allowing it to start, isolate this if you can as it's starting to sound like it could be this rather than the starter motor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted October 18, 2015 Administrators Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 It's an auto isnt it? so moving the selector up and down should no be moving anything with regards the input shaft if the box isnt upto pressure.Its a manual coupe I believe Richie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted October 18, 2015 Moderators Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Ah, yes, i remember the photos now. Thinking about it i think it's looking more like the solenoid playing up, especially as it's just been pointed out to me it's an auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Its a manual coupe I believe Richie Yes it is a manual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member Cryistic Posted October 18, 2015 Founding Member Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Ah, yes, i remember the photos now. Thinking about it i think it's looking more like the solenoid playing up, especially as it's just been pointed out to me it's an auto.Its a manual, it's probably wise not to listen to me at any point during a conversation about fixing anything mechanical 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 It's just occured to me that I could test the solenoid is actually sending any power to the starter motor. The switched side of the solenoid is underneath (so difficult to reach when it is in the car). If I rig up a temporary fly lead, I could use it to check the switched voltage from the solenoid while a glamorous assistant holds the key over. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted October 18, 2015 Administrators Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 It's just occured to me that I could test the solenoid is actually sending any power to the starter motor. The switched side of the solenoid is underneath (so difficult to reach when it is in the car). If I rig up a temporary fly lead, I could use it to check the switched voltage from the solenoid while a glamorous assistant holds the key over. Considering the effort you have gone to so far, I'm surprised you haven't already tested off the car, as it is relatively easy to do when I've stored starters for a while I always test them before shipping them out I'm finding it a very interesting post, so keep up the good work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welland99 Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Considering the effort you have gone to so far, I'm surprised you haven't already tested off the car it as its relatively easy to do when I've stored starters for a while I always test them before shipping them I understand your point. But the problem is that it works perfectly enough of the time (or, not works badly enough) to make testing and diagnosis difficult. If i test it off the car, it might work consistently well, but that would not prove the starter and solenoid are both blameless. If I was to get a spare battery lead and connect one end securely to the switched side of the solenoid, I could use this to bypass the solenoid when the fault is occuring. This would help to show if the solenoid is to blame. The difficulty is in how to make that cable live: I wouldn't have thought it a good idea to just hold it on the battery terminal by hand as the current drawn would likely cause quite a bit or arcing. What do you think? The alternative is to try to rig up a proper push button switch under the bonnet: that used to be common on vintage cars didn't it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted October 18, 2015 Administrators Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Why not try a remote starter switch to further your investigation: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Remote-Starter-Switch-Engine-Starter-Switch-Diagnostic-Tool-VS205-/351224899073?hash=item51c6a2a601:g:MhsAAOSwkNZUgLJ7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted October 18, 2015 Moderators Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 The common test for bypassing the solenoid is from underneath with a spanner or screwdriver. Using a remote starter button only duplicates the action of the ignition key and won't actually test the solenoid is passing the 100+A it needs to pass for the starter to turn.I still think there could be a solenoid fault, often what happens is they build up a ring of gum on the plunger which gradually gets thicker and prevents the plunger going fully home to the point where the contact in the end bridges the permanent +ve and the switched +ve terminals on the solenoid. I can't seem to find your starter photos now, can you give another link or repost them please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member Cryistic Posted October 19, 2015 Founding Member Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 2.0 breaker, might be worth asking about the starter motor. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-Accord-Coupe-2-0-Breaking-for-Parts-ALL-PARTS-AVAILABLE-Spares-or-repair/221901682556?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33840%26meid%3D24b18aef0bce4c8494c137650d409f5d%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D262088576748 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member Mazda Man Posted October 20, 2015 Founding Member Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 Personally, I wouldn't have a clue on how to check things on a starter, I would simply replace it. Or you could try my Volvo 740 GLT trick and bash it with a hammer? Worked every time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted October 20, 2015 Moderators Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 That's what i suggested a few posts up Geoff - quite a few posts up in fact, near the top of this page. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member Mazda Man Posted October 20, 2015 Founding Member Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 Yep....Quite fun when it's pouring down with rain flipping the bonnet to bash your blooming starter motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted October 20, 2015 Moderators Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 I can imagine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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