Accord Coupe 2.0 Starter Motor Fault

[welland99]

I've had an intermittent issue with the starter on my 2L CG4 for about 2 years.  When it is misbehaving, the solenoid clicks loudly, but the motor does not turn.  Sometime it starts first go for weeks or months, then the intermittent issue returns.  I can't remember the problem occuring when the engine is hot, only when cold. 

 

I have developed strategies to make the starter work:

1) If the starter does not turn, let go of the key, then turn it again.  Most times, this will cause the starter to work before the 5th attempt. 

2) If the above doesn't work, move the gear lever into a gear (manual tranny), then back to neutral again.  But not any old gear.  If the gear lever slides effortlessly into gear, this seems to make no difference.  So try a different gear - looking for one that requires a little more force to engage the gear.  This forces the gearbox and starter to move a little.  Then put it back in neutral and try to start again. 

 

I have no idea why this works, but it does. 

3) If neither of the above works, then try the next on the list:  take the key right out of the ignition, then try again.  One of these strategies has always worked, until Friday,  I am baffled abut how methods 2 and three actually work.  The starter is not in constant mesh, so I can't think why turning the engine a tiny amount can work.  And why should removal of the ignition key make any diifference? 

 

On friday last week, it simply refused to work.  None of my methods worked at all, so I removed the starter and solenoid on Saturday to investigate. 

 

Pics to follow. 

 

 

[hughezee]

Silly as sounds is your battery OK, when I've have had cars sitting around for a while they give these symptoms and a worn starter gear or crusty contacts will give you weird scenarios, but a good should battery will overcome this   

Maybe post a few pic's or a quick video of the no start if you get the opportunity, either way, keep us posted chap.

[welland99]

Sorry, still can't figure out how to upload photos directly to the site, so here's a link to them:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ybxmslm6glq4b6a/AADTxeTX0F7Yx2WXUQA5AWWVa?dl=0

 

Can anybody see anything wrong in these pics?  The contacts look good to me, as do the brushes and the commutator.  Battery connections are good.  I'm baffled! 

 

I've put it all back together and now it's working again, but the intermittent problem remains.  In the couple of days since saturday, the intermittent problem seems to be more problematic than it used to be, so I think now is the time for a proper remedy to be found. 

[welland99]

Silly as sounds is your battery OK, when I've have had cars sitting around for a while they give these symptoms and a worn starter gear will give you weird scenarios, but a good battery will overcome this 

 

Keep us posted

Well it is an old battery.  But the symptoms of :

1) one moment it won't start

2) the next moment it starts perfectly

 

.... don't seem consistent with a dicky battery (to me).  After I put it back together on saturday, I started it and stopped it about 10 times in a minute.  It worked perfectly every time.  That would have caused quite a drain on the battery in a short time and no problems.  (But then the intermittent problem returned again). 

[hughezee]

Another thought are all the earth connections to the engine and gearbox in good order?

[welland99]

Been on to the local honda dealer and an independent parts factor on Monday:

1) Honda:  £377 + vat - no way, I can't justify this expense. 

2)Indy:  couple of options from £70+vat to £110+vat, but not yet convinced that they're the correct one.  I left the part numbers on my desk at work, so couldn't check them this eve. 

[welland99]

Another thought are all the earth connections to the engine and gearbox in good order?

Good thought.  They are tight and look good, but I haven't removed them to clean the contacts.  I'll try to look at that tomorrow eve - if it stops raining!

[welland99]

Has anybody got a spare starter that will fit - or know a breaker with one? 

The model on the starter is Denso 228000 6421

Just done a bit of searching online and found this site:  http://www.yoyopart.com/oem/7406142/denso-2280006421.html#application

On the application list, it shows various accords and preludes that (apparently) share the same starter.  However, it doesn't list my model.  I wonder if I could trust it?

[Cryistic]

Well it is an old battery. But the symptoms of :

1) one moment it won't start

2) the next moment it starts perfectly

.... don't seem consistent with a dicky battery (to me). After I put it back together on saturday, I started it and stopped it about 10 times in a minute. It worked perfectly every time. That would have caused quite a drain on the battery in a short time and no problems. (But then the intermittent problem returned again).

I had this, it was cured by a new battery.Even had the RAC out once and by the time he got to me it would start he diagnosed a shagged battery.

It's worse when cold as the battery has been sitting losing voltage, better after a run as its been charged.

Stick a new battery on it and see before getting a new starter, the starter solenoid seems to be sensitive to voltage fluctuation, decent secondhand one would prove it either way.

There's a couple of 2lt breakers on ebay at the moment, have a look at the accord coupe project thread.

[Mazda Man]

I would get a new battery anyway, for peace of mind, especially now winter is looming and the dark nights are almost here...groan.

[Cryistic]

Guess what happened to my car yesterday, I'll be fitting a new battery put that way.

[Mazda Man]

Spooky. 

[Laird_Scooby]

Welland - does the car have an immobiliser? The symptoms you describe pretty much match a dodgy immobiliser.

 

You could run a separate starter button as a test from battery +ve to the trigger terminal on the solenoid, if the key fails to operate the starter but the starter button does then it's a fault either in the immobiliser or the starter circuit on the car (ignition switch, starter relay, wiring etc) but at least it will firstly give you an alternative method of starting the car and secondly prove the starter motor.

 

none of what's been said adds up to a dodgy battery, if it was that then it would happen every morning and no amount of key fiddling or whatever else would help. The bit about putting it into gear is another clue here. If the immobiliser relay is dodgy and only passing say half the current it should, then it will only pull the starter pinion in "half-heartedly" and not with the full force to overcome the one-way clutch in the pinion so the pinion turns to mesh with the flywheel. Instead, the pinion will get halfway in and stop, so turning the engine a smidge by selecting a gear will allow the pinion to mesh easier with the flywheel and then the solenoid contacts will be made so the starter will turn.

 

This could be that i'm clutching at straws but worth checking, could save you a lot of money on a replacement starter when maybe you don't need one.

[hughezee]

Good point Dave, so look to see if your key light is flashing when its refusing to start

[Laird_Scooby]

If the relay in the immobiliser is dodgy, it may not show a fault on the key light as it would "think" everything was ok, hence my solution of adding a starter button, even if only temporarily.

[welland99]

Welland - does the car have an immobiliser? The symptoms you describe pretty much match a dodgy immobiliser.

Do you mean an after-market immobiliser?  Not as far as I know.  I've never spotted any evidence of affter-market wiring and I've had the car about 10 years. 

I was under the impression that there is a factory fitted immobiliser - is this correct? 

Good point Dave, so look to see if your key light is flashing when its refusing to start

Which key light do you mean? Do you mean the round light around the ignition key hole?  Could you please explain the flashing behaviour, because this is something that I've not heard of before. 

[welland99]

Another thought are all the earth connections to the engine and gearbox in good order?

I had a look at this and found an earth strap from the battery to the gearbox - close to the starter motor.  Are there any more?  I disconnected the gearbox end and thought it looked OK.  there was some corrosion near the outside perimeter of the contact, but there was shiny metal nearer the middle.  Anyway, I cleaned the contacts.  The problem has not gone away, but it is much less troublesome than it was in early September.  Trouble is that I can't conclude if cleaning the earth contact made any difference. 

[Laird_Scooby]

Do you mean an after-market immobiliser?  Not as far as I know.  I've never spotted any evidence of affter-market wiring and I've had the car about 10 years. 

I was under the impression that there is a factory fitted immobiliser - is this correct? 

Which key light do you mean? Do you mean the round light around the ignition key hole?  Could you please explain the flashing behaviour, because this is something that I've not heard of before. 

There should be a key symbol warning light on the dash, green if i remember rightly and it shows the factory immobiliser has disarmed. If there is a fault condition that the immobiliser recognises then it flashes. However it may not recognise a faulty relay in the starter circuit. Could also be something as silly as corrsion on the starter relay pins - if you can identify the starter relay then pulling it out and refitting it a few times usually cleans the contacts enough to get it working again.

If it's the one i'm thinking of, if you lift the lid on the underbonnet fusebox, it usually has a "map" of what everything is inside so you should find the starter relay that way. Sometimes it's just marked with a book symbol meaning "Refer to Workshop Manual/Handbook" to deter would-be thieves from jumping across the contacts to operate the starter.

 

The red light round the ignition barrel is only there to help you "find the hole" in the dark. I just know Geoff will have something to say about red lights helping you find the hole!

[Cryistic]

Have you checked the voltage the battery is giving out when your having starter issues?

 

The slight improvement after cleaning the earth strap contacts could be that the battery is getting more of a charge and encountering less resistance when trying to start the car, to me it looks like you need to investigate the battery/charging system a little more.

[Mazda Man]

The green key symbol on the rev counter is the light to look for I believe (immobiliser), it usually flashes when the key is inserted and goes off when started.  Then when the key is turned off, it flashes again, presumably to confirm the immobiliser is active?  Does it flash more than a couple of times?

[welland99]

Here's the pics I took of the earth strap before and after cleaning. 

[welland99]

Here's the pics I took of the earth strap before and after cleaning. 

As it turns out, they appear in reverse order, so that's after cleaning, then before!

[Mazda Man]

Any joy Welland? 

[Laird_Scooby]

If the earths are that bad...............what about the +ve feed??? That could be just as badly, if not more corroded.

[welland99]

If the earths are that bad.............

Well, if you look at the last photo, that shows the side of the connector that faced onto the gearbox.  Almost all of the contact area was shiny bright metal, so I didn't actually think it was bad at all. 

..........what about the +ve feed??? That could be just as badly, if not more corroded.

You can see the positive connectors on the dropbox link higher up the thread.  In particular, look at photo img_4577.  The connector on the right is from the battery and this has a rubber boot to keep the wet out.  The live to the solenoid is the little spade connector in the middle, again, not bad. The short cable on the left (not a good angle, I admit) is the feed from the solenoid to the motor and is also not bad.