ZeroEffort Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Hoping someone here can help out. I have seen forums for more common vehicles, but Elysions are not super common. I bought my 2004 in Japan and brought it to Germany. It has just under 87K km on it. I wanted to throw this on here to see if anyone has these issues and to see how common they are for this vehicle. Like the subject reads I have the 2004 AWD 4cyl model. This is my first winter with it and when it just started getting cold, like 40 deg f, it was slow to start. My starter locked up the other night and I ended up needing to knock it to get it started. The check engine light also comes on sometimes, but will go off the next day. I borrowed a co-workers code reader while it was on and got the P0325 code which is the knock/combustion sensor etc. I want to order a starter and a knock sensor but I really don't want to order the wrong ones. Have any of you had success off a website? Have any of you ordered these parts, if so what part numbers did you end up ordering? Thank in advance for the help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted February 2, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Hi and welcome to H6nda!! Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Newbie section...and we need photos of your ride !!!! Re starter, have a read here Sounds a similar problem that you have?? I realise you have the 2.4 but it's just a starter motor !! Sounds like the starter solenoid might be failing, or your battery is giving up. ??? Knock sensor is odd, wouldn't have thought it was connected but who knows with these electronic hierarchys !!! Can you get the starter out and bench test it ?? Use Amayama.com to look up part numbers, the Elysion is listed!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Thanks PTR, I will introduce myself. Thanks for the help. They aren't connected I dont think, just coincidentally two problems at once. The engine compartment has a decent amount of space and yet this starter is almost under the engine block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted February 2, 2022 Administrators Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Welcome to the club, the two issues could be related as the starter motor and knock sensor are not too far apart and hitting the starter could have damaged it as piezocrystals can fail when subjected to sudden metallic high frequencies, not that it matters now anyway.🤪 I have replaced lots of knock sensors and the part you need p/n: 30530-PNA-003 and from experience I would strongly advise getting a genuine sensor: https://www.amayama.com/en/part/honda/30530ppla01 Regarding the starter motor p/n: 31200-RBB-004 actually crossreferences with LUCAS ELECTRICAL LRS02688 and will fit Honda Accord CL9 and Honda Odyssey RB1 RB2 Honda Stepwgn RG3 RG4, although that's probably no surprise. Nevertheless, I would suggest removing the old unit and compare with the replacement item if possible? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2022 Thanks a lot a really appreciate it! I'll post on here how it goes and the part number to see if it's a useable/interchangeable. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 3, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 3, 2022 Welcome aboard and glad the likely causes have already been suggested. On 2/2/2022 at 6:42 PM, ZeroEffort said: The check engine light also comes on sometimes, but will go off the next day. I borrowed a co-workers code reader while it was on and got the P0325 code which is the knock/combustion sensor etc. There is a confusing word there, combustion sensor - that could potentially also be the Lambda sensor and yours could be old/lazy/failing especially with the intermittent nature of the engine management light coming on. Before you shell out on new parts, i'd suggest clearing the codes and driving it, noting when (and under what circumstances) the EML comes on if indeed it does. Also if it goes out shortly after or if switching the engine off and restarting temporarily clears it until the next day. The general consensus of opinon for service life of a Lambda sensor is 100k miles (160k km) or 10 years, whichever comes sooner. Many short journeys can result in a low mileage but a poisoned Lambda sensor due to excessive cold starts, hence the 10 year/100k mile whichever is sooner limit. What Stu mentions about the knock sensor is spot on, they can be damaged by shock waves and also Lambda sensors can be too so if you happened to clout the exhaust by mistake when hitting the starter, that may also point towards the Lambda sensor too. Good luck in getting it sorted! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 15, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2022 I wanted to give an update. Haven't ordered replaced any parts yet but I got my starter in locally for cheaper than on the amayama site (by almost 500 euro), but I ordered the knock sensor off the site because it was $100USD with shipping and the place I ordered the starter from quoted me 470 euro. I really do appreciate all the help. V/R, E.J 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted February 15, 2022 Administrators Report Share Posted February 15, 2022 Thanks for the update, glad your getting things sorted. 👍 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 Update to the update. Had the shop replace the starter and they said I will need a new flywheel because the teeth on the starter were all chipped/shaved off. When I originally started it,.it was.grinding and after I drove it down the road to do groceries the car won't start. Originally the.starter was free spinning ( I could hear it) but now it's doing nothing. I called the parts store and he said that the K24 and the K20 flywheels are interchangeable but if I use a k20 flywheel then I would have to change the clutch also. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted February 22, 2022 Administrators Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 I am a little bit confused as the auto's don't have a flywheel they have a flex/drive plate that bolts on the torque converter which has the ring gear welded to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted February 22, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 I am even more confused, were the teeth chipped before the starter replacement? Or was the replacement starter gear incorrect? All teeth chipped or just a few ?? Is it, maybe, the starter gear that has chipped ???? As you said it spun freely ??? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted February 22, 2022 Administrators Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 Also, the starter motor teeth are sacrificial and are normally a softer metal than the ring gear if the teeth are damaged on the torque converter (very surprised) you will need to remove the gearbox and replace the torque converter completely as they are balanced and the ring gear cannot be replaced by a normal mechanic as it requires specialist tools. Picture below for reference 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 Sorry the old one was chipped. Not the new one. Most of the teeth were. After the new one was installed it was grinding. Then it free spun, then didn't do anything. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 Hugh thanks for the info! I had my buddy push me to back to the shop and I left the car there. I am going to have to swing by there in the morning. But yeah they didn't take photos or anything. I know because of where the starter is located they struggled to get down there but I don't even know if they even looked. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted February 22, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 19 minutes ago, ZeroEffort said: After the new one was installed it was grinding. Then it free spun, then didn't do anything. That is the telling sentence, right there, the starter tooth pitch was incorrect, almost certainly. When they get the starter out get a good look at the gear and check it against the original if you still have it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 5 minutes ago, PTR200S said: That is the telling sentence, right there, the starter tooth pitch was incorrect, almost certainly. When they get the starter out get a good look at the gear and check it against the original if you still have it. Thanks, sorry I did not respond to you directly before, I was doing it from my phone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted February 22, 2022 Administrators Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 24 minutes ago, ZeroEffort said: I know because of where the starter is located they struggled to get down there but I don't even know if they even looked. I have replaced a few starters at the roadside it's not easy, the geared starters can be problematic if they are rebuilt incorrectly. I just replace them with a reputable rebuilt unit or an older style starter motor with an external starter solenoid and never had any problems. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 So do you two think it is more likely that the new starter is faulty? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Subscriber’s RevvinKevin Posted February 22, 2022 Site Subscriber’s Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 33 minutes ago, ZeroEffort said: So do you two think it is more likely that the new starter is faulty? Am I correct thinking you ordered a new starter by part no. Or did the shop order if from your original fitment. Did they see yours first? If the teeth were worn away on the old, first thing that should have been checked was the teeth on the ring gear. Stu, is it a permanently engaged type starter? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted February 22, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 45 minutes ago, ZeroEffort said: So do you two think it is more likely that the new starter is faulty? Can't really decide without seeing the damage for real but one thing I do know is that a new starter should not "grind" As the only thing you have changed is the starter then I would be looking at that first and as hughezee has pointed out the starter ring shouldn't give up first so pointing back to bad interlock between the starter and the ring gear....or previous damage on the ring gear, maybe? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted February 22, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 19 hours ago, RevvinKevin said: If the teeth were worn away on the old, first thing that should have been checked was the teeth on the ring gear. Yep, this for sure as well. There are a few aspects that should be checked now....maybe the ring gear is OK but has the starter has taken the hit ?, as Hughezee says. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2022 1 minute ago, RevvinKevin said: Am I correct thinking you ordered a new starter by part no. Or did the shop order if from your original fitment. Did they see yours first? If the teeth were worn away on the old, first thing that should have been checked was the teeth on the ring gear. Stu, is it a permanently engaged type starter? Yes, by part number. No they did not see mine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 23, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 23, 2022 I wonder if the wrong drive pinion (or a faulty one) was fitted to the starter during assembly originally? Can you get the part number from the old starter to compare and also compare the drive pinions on both starters? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroEffort Posted February 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Laird_Scooby said: I wonder if the wrong drive pinion (or a faulty one) was fitted to the starter during assembly originally? Can you get the part number from the old starter to compare and also compare the drive pinions on both starters? The shop has the van now, I have them looking into the old starter's part# along with the new#. I have been searching for torque converters as well. I was trying to figure out, but I can not find a definitive answer as to what the difference is between RFF/RBB if any. On the amayama and jp-carparts websites they list the part # as 26000-RFF-305 but I find 26000-RBB-305 on sites like ebay and other car part sites. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 23, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted February 23, 2022 If they bench test the starters by putting them in a vice, suing a slave battery and a set of jump leads, they should be able to run the motor in the vice. Then use a length of old wood to load the pinion by levering one end on the bench and the other against the pinion. If the unidirectional clutch inside the new pinion is faulty, that will be enough to make it slip. Also count the number of teeth on each pinion as there may have been a difference between auto and manual starters and only found in a tiny footnote somewhere. Why do you need a new torque converter as well? You haven't mentioned any faults with that so far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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