Founding Member PaulS Posted March 28, 2023 Founding Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2023 Last used, yesterday, with no noticed issues, the coupe had a refuel & clean ready for a day out today. This morning, I started my coupe and heard a strange loudish rumbling scraping type noise but no other noticed symptoms. I cautiously put it in drive, foot on brake to see if the noise went away or not. It did not.... Took my foot off the brake and the car took off like a scalded cat wheel spinning along about 6 feet where it kindly attacked and pushed through my 4 brick high garden wall before I (and the wall) stopped it, both front wheels overhanging the drop into my rear garden with lots of broken bricks and dripping fluids. And no, I did not knowingly stamp on the accelerator.... As can be imagined, the front of my car suffered somewhat and it was beached with the longitudinal chassis rails sat on the strong remnants of my wall. 2 hrs later with the help of 3 strong neighbours, 2 trolley jacks, 2 scaffold planks, and a lot of heaving, I managed to gingerly drive the car back into its original parking spot - now no strange noises! But the bumper took a big hit, along with the lower front rail under the now V shaped rad. I have not done much investigating of the damage to front of the car as it was pouring down most of the day. However a cursory look showns the rad and lower rail pushed back at least 6 inches, with the fans now touching the engine, the top rail bent down around 45 degrees (made it difficult to open the bonnet), power steering gone with fuid leaking out through no doubt wrecked pipework. Will have to take off the bumper / grill to see more and assess the damage. Not that I feel lucky, but had that F1 start happened in a multi-story car park or near a bus queue etc, the outcome could have been disasterous. Now I have to assess the damage and consider fixing it all. But I really, really need to understand what happened to cause the initial noises and work out why the unintended F1 start... Any ideas anyone? I do not want to fix the damage only to have the same thing happen again with much more serious consequences elsewhere. Salvaging & rebuilding the garden wall will take priority (or so I am told!!!), followed by replanting the debris area.... But I have permission to take off the bumper and assess the car damage... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted March 28, 2023 Moderators Report Share Posted March 28, 2023 Blimey, I bet that was a shock to your system, glad you are OK though .although the car is worse for wear from your description. That is really wierd, i know you said you put it in gear and then let off the footbrake but did it take off immediately you shoved it in gear , do you think or can you definitely say it was off the brake ? Edit, just re reading your description you are quite clearly off the brake..so that would suggest lots of revs to take off like that...still on "choke" or more revs than that ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted March 28, 2023 Administrators Report Share Posted March 28, 2023 😮 Glad you're ok apart from any obvious high RPM's I cannot think why it would take off even if the torque converter locked up. 🤔 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted March 28, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2023 1 hour ago, PTR200S said: .still on "choke" or more revs than that ? Most definitely much more than choke - ther is a 6ft streak of spinning tyre mark on my paving!. It was more like a full throttle take off.giving me less than 1 sec to react before hitting the wall. A definite WTF is happening moment.... Apart from shock (and sad about the damage to car & wall) , I am fine and unhurt. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted March 28, 2023 Administrators Report Share Posted March 28, 2023 High RPMs could be a result of a vacuum leak, throttle plate stuck open, cruise control motor stuck or faulty throttle position sensor, and/or faulty idle air control valve. Not that it helps now, dealing with a suspected stuck idle air control valve I always keep my foot well planted on the brakes and select a gear and the revs should subside. However, if they don't, I would put it in park or neutral and just shut off the engine and investigate other possibilities as I've mentioned.🙃 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted March 30, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted March 30, 2023 Would any of those suggestions for high RPM actually increase the RPM to above 3000? Such would be needed to give instant acceleration & wheel spinning I suffered... And what about the source of the loudish rumbling scraping sounds on tickover before putting it in gear - these noises still need identification (no - I do not have any recordings and they have now gone and the engine ran quietly normal again - oil spills out through broken pipe though, so I have not run it again since backing out of the broken wall. Would any ofthe suggestion account for the noises? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted March 30, 2023 Administrators Report Share Posted March 30, 2023 Sounds like there's possibility of two things going on with any of one the above suggestions with the noise related to the A.C compressor. Now the refrigerant has likely leaked out the noise has gone as a result of the pressure switch cutoff.🤨 Additionally, when the A.C. clutch engages it will raise the engine speed to compensate, so if the engine was heavily loaded more than normal or had an electrical short it would raise the idle excessively or fluctuate rapidly. I would check the compressor by bridging the pressure switch connection to see if that was the source of the noise.😉 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted April 4, 2023 Moderators Report Share Posted April 4, 2023 I'm with Stu on this one, it sounds horribly like the compressor clutch bearing is shot (causing the noise) and a combination of the AC kicking in and raising the engine rpm on a cold engine could bring the revs up a fair bit. However, still not enough to give what you described IMHO unless something else happened. One thing that puzzles me though, if there was a garden wall 6ft in front of you, why did you not engage reverse instead of drive? Like Stu mentions, it's always good practice to have the brake applied before selecting D or R, in fact i can't disengage P unless the brake is on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted April 4, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted April 4, 2023 Indeed I did have to put the brake on to engage Drive. There is another very solid wall behind so reverse was not an option (yes it is a tight parking space!) After much investigation, it appears there is a condition called "sudden unexpected accelleration" the cause of which seems still unexplained by anyone but I have now spoken to 2 other people who have experienced this problem, one in a Honda and one in a Mondeo. There was also a big issue with some Jeeps in the USA. However as the F1 start was immediately after I took my foot off the brake (normally a slight creep forward at this stage and all that I expected) and before I touched the accelleartor, I suspect the torque converter was locked up. I was unaware of raised RPM, but did not look at the rev gauge as the F1 start happened all to quickly, leaving twin wheel spin marks on my path!. Maybe I am wrong, but is there a solenoid of some sort which gives a signal telling the torque converter to lock? If there is, it could be that this signal was erroneously generated. When I finally managed to drive the car back up the scaffolding planks and back to its initial starting place, there was no issue with either noise or harsh accelleration, it drove normally (as normal as usual apart from spewing various fluids...) I have now rebuilt the wall (although some tidying up is required) and I need to replace the lomg overdue bottom ball joint on the Merc (now I need to use it!), then I will start looking at the damage on my Coupe in the hope that it is salvageable and that I can conclusively identify & remedy the cause of the issue along with all the other as yet unidentified damage. The bar under the radiator is badly bent back and I can see at least 3 spot welds that have ripped open. Guess this is what really hit the wall hard... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted April 4, 2023 Moderators Report Share Posted April 4, 2023 1 hour ago, PaulS said: After much investigation, it appears there is a condition called "sudden unexpected accelleration" the cause of which seems still unexplained by anyone but I have now spoken to 2 other people who have experienced this problem, one in a Honda and one in a Mondeo. There was also a big issue with some Jeeps in the USA. I've heard of that, fortunately never experienced it but given all the circumstances, it fits what happened to you. I know Stu often has parts salvaged from other coupes that have died for whatever reason, he may be able to help you out with some parts, fingers crossed it's fixable! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted April 4, 2023 Moderators Report Share Posted April 4, 2023 That problem seems to have been around for a lot of years but haven't heard of it recently. Daf had it with their belt drive 33 etc I was told at one time but I only recall the Volvo 3 series autos being charged with that problem... I once had a Volvo 360GLT manual that I got after my first Volvo , a 240 GLT, and friends said I was going to injured !!! .......Until I pointed out the 360 was a manual box !!! How much truth there was in any of the stories I don't know but the media often reported sudden acceleration incidents with the autos...must have been early to mid eighties. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted April 6, 2023 Administrators Report Share Posted April 6, 2023 On 4/4/2023 at 8:47 PM, PaulS said: Maybe I am wrong, but is there a solenoid of some sort which gives a signal telling the torque converter to lock? If there is, it could be that this signal was erroneously generated. There is a solenoid for the torque converter lockup function, the solenoids do wear out or get stuck, its fairly accessible if you wanted to inspect yours and I do have a spare if you need one.👍 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted April 7, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted April 7, 2023 I had a good look at the mess today. Bumper off, undertray plastic off (both a bit of a challenge with clips hidden by bent bits & other bits broken...), will put some pictures on whatsapp Still not sure about a fix due to the crossmember under the rads being well bent up and at least 3 spot welds ripped out on the RH side, Rads & fans stuck on front of engine! Known broken bits: Bumper, possibly fixable with some plastic welding Undertray, as above LH wheel arch liner, as above RH wheel arch liner - replacement needed Washer bottle with electrics Power steering bottom hose Power steering cooler piping water rad Aircon rad T piece on water hose going to jets on front bumper Serpentine belt shredding Unknown issues still to bottom out: Oil leak Chassis damage ??? Both fans jammed into front of engine so cannot check until free Using pry bars, I had a good go at bending back the rail under the rads but without any discernable movement. Need to work out how to remove the rads so I can get a good pull on that crossmenber with some heavy duty hydraulic puller.... Then, if feasible, see if the crossmember can be welded back in place... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted April 7, 2023 Moderators Report Share Posted April 7, 2023 40 minutes ago, PaulS said: see if the crossmember can be welded back in place... It all depends if Mr MoT-Man decides it is a subframe rather than a non-structural crossmember as subframes can't be welded for MoT purposes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted April 10, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 Got a power puller but first I have to remove the bent up rads so that I can see where to best attach the puller. I have removed the top 2 rad mounts but cannot see what if anything else needs undoing. A good tug does not pull the rad up.... or indeed move it at all, seems something(s) hidden down below is holding firm. How would one normally remove undamaged rads from an undamaged car? I can start mega heaving or butchery if needed but would like to simply undo stuff where I can... Guidance please. Thanks 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted April 10, 2023 Moderators Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 Presumably all the pipes are off so the only thing would be two top mounts as the bottom ones, I think, are just standard slot in..rubber bushes possibly. You said the fans are crunched,,,are they wedging it in somehow?? As the rads are feked anyway and the pipes are off I think some serious pulling or cutting is in order 🫣🫣🫣 https://www.autodoc.co.uk/nissens/1990427 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted April 10, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 On 4/7/2023 at 10:07 PM, Laird_Scooby said: It all depends if Mr MoT-Man decides it is a subframe rather than a non-structural crossmember as subframes can't be welded for MoT purposes. If I could find bolts to undo, I would think it a subframe and then simply change it. But as yet, I have found no bolts.... will know more when I have found a way to remove the mangled mess of rads that is greatly restricting view and access.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted April 10, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted April 10, 2023 2 hours ago, PTR200S said: ,are they wedging it in somehow?? As they are squashed,they are wedged against bits on the frontof the engine,. Pulling very hard upwards willl no doubt work - but I do not want to do damage to the things they are squashed against. I guess I will have to try the hydraulic separater / pry bar to move the rad crossmember away from the engine cross,member to give a bit of space to get the rads out.... Looking at the front structure, the very front bar behind the bumper seems to bolt in place so I will probably remove that and attach a solid piece of 4x2" steel box (or a RSJ) section as a strong point to mount the puller (and perhaps a winch or 2 if still struggling to bend back the rad crossmember), then use that puller in conjunction with the hydraulic seperator to yank forward the bent crossmember. Ongoing thoughts at present - things not to be done in the current rainstorms.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted April 15, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted April 15, 2023 Still work in progress... I finally managed to get the broken radiators off today and cleared all the debris from the front of the engine so I could see what I need to do for a fix. Only a 7hr job due to nothing on the engine side being available to get at.... Surprisingly the aircon rad still held pressure until I undid a pipe connection. Most of the hose clips (type that spring together) had tabs missing so very difficult to move, but perseverance paid off. Luckily the oil leak was due to a damaged pipe to the broken oil cooler in the bottom of the rad. Only 1 bolt snapped off too! I had a good go at straightening out the rad support crossmember and have now got it 75% of the way back but still around an inch or so to go and then a lot of straightening needed. Need extra hydraulic bits.... But there is now enough space to start lashing stuff up to see what the remaining damage is. Jobs for next week: bypass the oil cooler, bypass the power steering, and put a spare Mitsubishi rad in temporarily, refill oil & water, and hopefuilly try starting & running to see what other problems might have occurred and whether the sudden drive problem is still there. No fan though unless I find a Kenlow hidden amongst my bits.... When I know the limit of the damage, and the root cause, and my ability to repair it (or not) I will make the decision to fix it or reluctantly scrap it... Can anyone think of anything I have missed?? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted April 16, 2023 Moderators Report Share Posted April 16, 2023 Seems like you have got everything covered 👍 I think now you have the list of most of the damage that needs repairing you should be able to get a costing....then you could make the decision to repair or scrap... If it is good for repair then add another 15 or 20 % to that cost for unforseen problems ...if still within the repair budget ...go for it !!! The unknown bit is what caused the problem in the first place....using temporary rads and other bits may not give you a chance to investigate properly????? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted April 16, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted April 16, 2023 Thanks Pete. I guess you prove right in the unknown stakes.... I think the thing I thought was an oil leak from the rediator pipe is in fact a transmission cooler so I may have lost transmission fluid which will need a top up. Also need to repair teh power steering pipe and fill up again else I will be running a dry pump & will screw that up.... Also, although the battery is fine, it now seems that absolutely no electrics work.... guess I have disturbed some essential wiring or blown a major fuse that now also needs sorting. Guess I should have disconnected teh battery before unplugging connectors.... Off to get some more hydraulics pushers, pullers and adaptors tomorrow from a (fairly) local friend who used to have a body shop.... Lets get the structure straight else fixing mechanicals etc will be a waste of time ... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted April 18, 2023 Moderators Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 Any news, Paul? Did you manage to get the pullers?? Car look any better ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted April 18, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 Got the 10 ton spreader & pullers I was promised, plus a few mechanical gadgets and a farm jack, and although I have 2 x 10 ton pumps and a double pump from hydraulic car ramps, none of the newly borrowed stuff connects to any pump as the fittings are different. Spent time at Hydraulics places looking for adaptors but with no joy as yet. I have an old style Clarke pump (unidentified thread / connector as yet) and a new style Chinese pump (American fittings), both working fine but not compatable with the medium aged (industrial) spreaders. Will try further "hydraulics specialists" and a couple more friends tomorrow. Also I found a vertical kink in the bent support bar, just at a reinforced part, so I also rummaged around & found a decent sized length of scaffolding type tube that fits into one of teh ram ends I have (that end is almost made for this job as it fits nicely on upfolded bends) and a big sledgehammer to bend it back down (supported underneath by blocks of some sort either side of the bit to be bashed down).... Hopefully I will get the connectors I need tomorrow, or hire something - than have another good go with my hammering & ramming... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Founding Member PaulS Posted April 20, 2023 Author Founding Member Report Share Posted April 20, 2023 Progress today. Although it still does not look overly pretty underneath at present (if it ever will again....), the somewhat mangled rad support bar is now bent back into more or less the correct place and almost ready to weld up. But a dry fit with the front crash bar in place shows that I need to pull in the RH front chassis leg around 5mm. Can't work out how it moved as the crash bar came off cleanly and I had a heavy duty pull bar attached in its place the whole time I was bending & stretching metal. Must have been when I was using the heavy duty hydraulic spreader.... I will have a good go with my power puller tomorrow (or next dry day...). Not yet looked again at the electrics however although nothing else seems to work, the horn does (found that out accidentally!). How come??? Next time I will also fix / block / bupass all broken hoses and refil fluids, then lash up a temp rad & fan - and assuming it will start, see what happens! It will remain jacked up with wheels off. If all that works out , I will be calling at Honda 6 HQ for replacement bits.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PTR200S Posted April 20, 2023 Moderators Report Share Posted April 20, 2023 Good to read of the great progress you are making . Does sound like an awful lot of damage though....just how fast were you going !!!!! It was just a few feet, six I think you said ??? Ever thought about Santa pod !!! Any pics yet ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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