Fitting LPG - hey, it's a gas, man!

[Laird_Scooby]

Sadly wednesdays efforts amounted to absolutely diddly-squat! However, i did a little bit yesterday, realigning the vapour inlet on the mixer and securing it with Loctite :

Today i decided to get a bit more serious - enter a roll of 6mm plastic covered copper pipe!

Before actually bending it to shape, i decided to have a practice with an old bit that came with the various kits/parts i've bought :

Here's the gadgets i used to work with the copper pipe :

Mini-cutter and mini-bender - annoyingly i bought a complete set of 3 tools (mini-bender, mini-cutter and pipe flaring tool) some months back in readiness and haven't been able to find them so had to buy these instead. Anyway, i started making use of them after my little practice piece!

That's the pipe to take the liquid gas from the tank to the vapouriser with the olive and squeeze but on the end. What can't be seen is the hole it has to go into! THe next pic gives a vague idea where it's likely to go :

Thankfully i have one of those "dentists mirrors" and a nice, bright LED worklight :

You can just make out where it's got to go - whatever congenital dimwit decided it would be a good idea to have the gas exit hole facing down with such minimal space to actually work, i'll never know! The fill port is almost as bad but more of that later! I eventually managed to get the pipe in and then removed it :

You're probably thinking i must be some sort of masochist to remove it after spending 3 hours trying to get it in but there was a good reason! I needed to check the olive had secure on the pipe with a bit of pipe clear at the end as shown. If it hadn't then there's every chance it could leak, come out or other nasty things. Next came the fill pipe - this one is 8mm and i thought i could re-use a fill pipe that came with some of the bits i've bought.

The squeeze-nut wouldn't go through the tank-vent so i had to ut the end of the pipe, fit a new olive and try to connect it to the threaded connector visible in that pic.It wasn't happening, despite cutting a slot in the tophat to make life easier.

As such i had to cut the end off and fit a new olive like previously mentioned.

After all that, the fill pipe was then too short! I have a new roll of 8mm pipe so all is not lost and i suppose in the great scheme of things, new pipe throughout would be better.

After spending so long getting the tank to vapouriser pipe connected to the multivalve on the tank, the fill pipe ws the last straw for today so i left it like this :

Inside view ^^^^^ and underside view :

That pipe is the tank to vap pipe and will obviously be secured to the car. For now though, until i get the fill pipe and then the wiring fitted, there's little point as i may have to move it. Hopefully tomorrow i'll be able to make a new fill pipe and get it fitted fairly quickly and easily. If so then i can jack the left of the car up and start securing the tank to vap pipe and then plumb the vap and mount it on its bracket! Then it's the mixer to fit to the throttle body and the wiring before i can start setting up.

[Laird_Scooby]

After coming to a grinding halt yesterday, today was another day so hoped for great things! Starting off with a new roll of mm tubing for the fill pipe, i thought (hoped!) it would be an easy fit :

No such luck though! Got the pipe bent near enough where it needed to be but sadly a miss is as good as a mile as the saying goes!

Eventually i resorted to drawing some lines on the pipe so i'd know how far into the valve it was :

This helped enormously as it happened - i got the olive and squeeze-nut on it and was able to jiggle the pipe from underneath, then above, underneath again and so on until i got it a fair way in to the valve. I was then able to tighten the squeeze-nut up, safe in the knowledge the pipe was in as far as it needed to be!

By the way, that isn't a kink in the pipe that goes to the vapouriser, it's the plastic sheathing round it that has "moved" when i bent it with the mini-bender - it rucked up a bit and now looks kinked but the pipe isn't thankfully!

Next step was to connect the "business end" of the fill pipe! Because the spare wheel well is slightly offset to the left, the centre of the tank and the tank vent hole is slightly offset as well. This means the fill pipe exited on the left of the towbar "spine" so i ran it along the left then took it through behind one of the back end mounting points. Here's the end of the pipe, ready for the olive and squeeze-nut to go into the filler :

Squeeze-nut and olive (hiding inside the nut) on the pipe, pipe inserted into the filler ready for tightening. After a bit of spanner twirling, this is the result :

This next pic shows how i routed it through behind the towbar mounting and where the pipe exits the tank-vent.

It needs the clips on it and a bit of manipulation to get it to sit right, also so that the tophat of the tank-vent sits properly in the centre of the tank. You can just make out the tank to vap pipe running along the towbar cross bar - this will be the approximate fitted position of the pipe.

At this point i wasn't feeling too great and needed a rest so came in for a rest, after securing the car, just in case! Wise move as it happened as i got in and had quite a nasty turn. That put the kybosh on any more progress today and i'll have to take tomorrow as it comes. It's annoying as i'm now "so close yet so far" from finishing! The main awkward bit now that's going to take time is securing the tank-vap pipe under the car and bringing it up into the engine bay. Once it's there the rest of the work can be done at least in an upright position but best of all without having to get on the floor. Nearly forgot, i still have to run the wiring to the tank but that will be easier once the tank-vap pipe is secured as i can cable tie the wiring to it. Granted that means grovelling on the floor again but at least it should be fairly quick and easy as the wiring is fairly light and straightforward.

Fingers crossed for a better day tomorrow!

[Laird_Scooby]

Well "tomorrow" was a long time coming! Felt rough all week and only started feeling somewhere near human again yesterday! With the way the weather has been i suppose it's been no bad thing as i would only have been frustrated not being able to get out if the weather had been good.

Anyway, today the weather was better and so was i thankfully. First job was to try and jiggle the fill-pipe into the right place so the tophat would get into position where i could seal it. It wasn't happening so i got on with securing the tank-vap pipe with the "P" clips and self-drilling screws - no pics of that i'm afraid as there was barely enough room to get the drill under the car to wind the screws in, maybe i'll get some pics of the finished job later when i run the tank wiring in.

However the first "P" clip in the engine bay turned out to be in a conveniently located bolt mounting hole! I found the right size bolt and got it secured :

That's just under the Control Box on the bulkhead and those canisters normally live in the bracket you can just see behind them. What you can't see in that pic is just how long the pipe was!

That's it running over the top of the dizzy to the right hand headlamp!

Going off on a tangent for a moment, i took the opportunity to do some preventive maintenance :

That wee beastie is the igniter and a common failure point due to excess heat. THis can be alleviated by cleaning the mating surfaces and smearing heatsink compound on them to aid heat transfer :

If you look carefully you can just see some white goo between the holes - this is the remains of the original heatsink compound.

That's a bit more like it! Note the compound on both the igniter and where it mounts on the body - probably a bit of overkill but ensures any spots i've missed on one get covered by the other. I also covered the mounting bolts as well - the more heat that can be transferred away from it the better!

Back to the matter in hand and fitting of the vap bracket - at last i hear you cry!

I had to cut a notch in the end to accommodate the coil bracket which in turn prevents the vap bracket moving.

Ready for the vap mounting bolt and bracket!

Remember how long the gas pipe was from that "P" clip? Well i couldn't leave it like that so cut it back to an approximate length :

After bending the pipe to roughly the right shape, i trial fitted the vap :

It's an odd shape but with the Control Box sat in place, it needs to be that shape believe it or not! This next pic shows why :

The pipe has to drop down to clear the rear (nearest control box) edge of the vap then come up again, clear the control box and it's tubing/wiring and feed into the vap. That's about all i managed today, had hoped to actually get the coolant side plumbed in and the gas but some things took longer than expected and i'm still not 100% (not that i ever am but 100% of what i normally am ) so on the basis of discretion being the better part of valour, called it a day there.

Oops! Mustn't forget that offcut!

Could do some damage if i did!

[hughezee]

Great progress Dave

[Laird_Scooby]

Thanks Stu - weather (and body/health) permitting, i should at least have the mechanical work finished tomorrow, then it's just down to the electrickery and setting up. If it goes well then i could potentially have it running by this time tomorrow but that might be a bit ambitious at the moment!

[Laird_Scooby]

Well there's good news and bad news!

The bad news is i didn't get quite as far forward as i hoped today - the good news is the mechanical work is now finished, except for a couple of small bits which will become obvious and the reasons for leaving them.

So what have i managed to accomplish today? This so far :

If you look hard, you can see i've managed to plumb the vapouriser in - LPG liquid in, coolant in and out and i have (although not connected in that pic) sorted the LPG vapour pipes too! That's where this pic starts to make sense :

That there is the LPG vapour pipe including the stepper-motor/actuator. Look just to the left of t and you'll see the brass elbow on the bottom of the mixer that is where the vapour enters to be mixed. The hose assembly needs to link between that brass elbow and the gas outlet on the top of the vap. After much fiddling and faffing about, including trying to fit a 19mm plastic elbow (i had been told it was 19mm hose - turned out to be 17mm bore), i dug out a 16mm elbow and used that to get this :

The stepper-motor isn't quite vertical, it's meant to be but there is a bit of tolerance on it.

Moving swiftly on, the next step (and last for today) was to put RTV sealant round the outer inside edge of the mixer. This is to ensure a gas-tight seal to the throttle body.

You can see traces of where it originally had RTV sealant there. All sealed up and fitted - note the Carlos Fandango screwdriver needed to get at the fixing screws!

This is how i left it for today as it was a convenient breaka-point :

Tomorrow i just need to fit the vapour pipe assembly, refit the air intake trunking between the mixer and air filter box. Then comes the fun part - doing the electrical stuff and setting it all up!

[Mazda Man]

Great write ups Dave, great pics too, really clear and big.  Ooo errr

[hughezee]

Right back at you Geoff ooh err Ma Cherie

[Laird_Scooby]

1 hour ago, GeoffPurpleHaze said:

Great write ups Dave, great pics too, really clear and big.  Ooo errr

Thanks Geoff but you seem to have missed a few oddly named components - squeeze-nuts for example!

53 minutes ago, hughezee said:

Right back at you Geoff ooh err Ma Cherie

Ooooh, Matron!

[Laird_Scooby]

Sadly got 5/8 of diddly-squat done today on the coupé - however it just became urgent! Bit of a hint here, watch out for some repair/reconditioning work in my Jeep thread soon!

[Laird_Scooby]

Not much achieved today either, mainly prep work on the sub-loom for the tank. This is basically the cable for the tank contents sender and the solenoid valve on the tank :

Basically just tying the two cables together with heatshrink so only two pics! Also done more prep work on the gas ECU loom - bear in mind this one was second hand and had been unkindly amputated from its donor vehicle. With the exception of the stepper-motor/actuator cable (which they managed to break the retaining clip on) all the other cables were truncated about 4-6 inches from the ECU plug. This means i've had to add cables onto the loom, renew/replace fuseholders and fuses and generally build the loom up from scratch.

Another reason i was annoyed at having to use the new Leo LPG ECU that i bought on ebay for a knockdown price on the Jeep but at least i knew it would work when i fitted it! I didn't have any secondhand ones around at the time although i've got a few now.

There is a cable on the Leo ECU for the temperature sensor. I didn't use it on the Jeep and i doubt i'll use it on either of the Rovers for the simple reason that LPG will vapourise by itself at quite a low temperature anyway, the coolant is added to the vapouriser to prevent icing up as LPG is an excellent refrigerant - shame we can't use it in the air-con systems! Ice cold air-con for 35p a fill? Hell, yeah!

A bit of nature news now. Remember the spares car i bought just before xmas? While helping my mate (whose back garden it's been languishing in ever since) remove the rear shocks to go on his (my old) 827SLi, we discovered this under the bonnet :

Totally unflapped by the whole photo taking procedure, Mrs Blackbird sat there calmly on her 4 eggs.

Most of the bits are off it now but obviously can't get rid of the remains until the fledglings have flown the nest - meanwhile she seems happy there!

[Mazda Man]

Ha ha brilliant.  I'm pretty sure it's against the law to disturb an occupied nest...then again, why would you?  She looks all at home there and will be gone soon.  

[Laird_Scooby]

Very true Geoff - i think you're right about disturbing nests but it's only illegal for certain species i think? Either way she won't be disturbed, no reason to break the trust she obviously has in us just for the sake of a week or three.

[Laird_Scooby]

Well the LPG conversion is in and running with a few "to do's" - only minor stuff though. Had a bit of a false start while testing as when it switched to gas the first time it blew a fuse!

Turned out to be the solenoid coil on the vap and didn't take much finding. Luckily with the various bits i've been buying i had another vap so plundered that for its solenoid coil as a temporary measure. I've yet to get it set up on the laptop as the laptop was flat but hoping to do a quick set-up session shortly - currently it's set up for a Range Rover V8 on the ECU (the Leonardo 175) and the vap is set up for a 4.0 litre Jeep! Fortunately i tweaked the vap down a bit on the bias and idle settings to something probably closer to where it should be (pure guesswork) before fitting it to give it a chance to run straightaway which it did, albeit a bit rough but it ran.

Just been out and had a quick twerk  with the laptop connected - the idle screw had to come out about 1/3 of a turn and so did the bias screw - not a bad guess in the first place! Running reasonably well now but i'll give it a good run tomorrow then check it again.

I'll also upload the rest of the pics and the write up later, not tonight as i'm shattered and busy tomorrow so probably tomorrow evening.

[hughezee]

Lustrous Possibilitarian Genius

[Laird_Scooby]

Qué?

[Laird_Scooby]

Finally got down to the nitty-gritty of wiring everything in :

Started by laying the loom out ready........

The individual wires are in roughly the right place and so starting with the switched ignition and tacho connections, i unplugged the coil :

The blue wire here is the switched feed to the vapouriser solenoid :

This is the injector resistor pack :

It had to be removed for access to the multiplugs near it where i was picking up the rear Lambda and Throttle Position Switch feeds and also the injector cut wires.

The first cut is the deepest! Well actually it was the injector cut +ve feed to the resistor pack. Cutting this prevents power reaching the injectors so they can't be opened by the PGM-Fi unit. This effectively cuts the petrol to the engine during LPG operation. On the 827/early Legends, there is no need for injector emulation to keep the PGM-Fi happy - this may have changed on later PGM-Fi cars so would pay to double check.

These two yellow wires come from the Leo and are multifunction according to what is set on the laptop during the set-up procedure. They can be injector cut, fault code memory feed (opens the feed to eliminate fault codes due to no injector opening) and one or two other things that i can't think of just now. They had already been set by the previous owner of the Leo as being injector cut so no programming needed on that one!

The purple wire is the Lambda sensor pick up (the Leo provides a grey wire as well and it is suggested to cut the Lambda sensor wire and connect the grey to the OE ECU side and the purple to the sensor) and will be connected without any disconnect on the sensor wire. This way i can see what the Lambda is doing on petrol as well.

The other yellow wire connected :

The Lambda connection cut so the purple wire can be joined into it :

Like so :

Double checking the colour codes, i was astonished to find the wiring changes colour through the multiplugs :

The red/blue wire (rear Lambda) changes to red/green through the plug - this caused me some confusion as the TPS wire is also red/blue on the ECU side but changes to red/yellow on the engine side :

Slightly different technique for joining the wires this time - i melted the insulation in two places round the wire and along one side with the soldering iron. This meant i could then pull a short section of insulation straight off without cutting the OE wire and wrap the new connecting wire round it then solder it :

Before refitting the injector resistor pack, i smeared some heatsink compound on the mating surface of it to promote heat transfer away from the resistors and into the bodywork.

With everything back in position :

Now over to the coil side of things :

Same melt the insulation technique used here for making the connection - the wiring is so tight i felt it better to do it that way.

Hopefully you're all wondering why i haven't put any sort of protection (eg heatshrink etc) on most of those wires - i did heatshrink the injector cut wires but they were easy to do as i had the length on the yellow wires to slide the heatshrink away from the heat of soldering. That simply wasn't possible on the "tight" connections. The plan was to use some self-amalgamating tape round the joint and then protect that with insulting tape. I found i didn't have any so went to a local electrical wholesaler to buy some. The brown-eyed redhead mit the big boobies hadn't a clue what i was asking for and asked a contractor who was getting his supplies. He just about knew what it was but couldn't suggest an alternative in the place but that i went next door to the fastener place.

I did! No big-breasted redhead here but a young(ish) lad who knows his stock very well. So i threw him a curved ball when i asked for self-amalgamating tape but he asked me what it was, what it was for then led me to some self-fusing silicone tape.

Turns out that self-amalgamating tape is the old name for it!  Most of the stuff i've used in the past has been black and made of PIB rubber (can't remember what PIB is, something like poly isotyl butyl but probably wrong!) which is slightly different to silicone rubber but never mind! At the temperatures, salt water conditions and voltages i'm using, this won't matter! Under the tape is a sheet of aluminium that i'll use to make a nice heatshield/bracket for the Leo as where it is (dangling by cable tie from the servo vacuum hose) gets a bit warm!

As the self-fusing tape was a bit wide, i cut it in strips half the width then wrapped it round the joints as shown :

Thinner strips ^^^^^ and below, protected with insulating tape :

Now for the earth connection! There's a nice, factory fitted, multiple earth point just behind the wiper motor :

There was only one spare hole in it so not deterred, i simply put both the earths i needed (Leo and gas solenoids) into one crimp and fitted it that way :

After pushing the connector home in the MEP (Multiple Earth Point), i refitted it as it left the factory.

Next up was to mount the fuseholders. The OE fuseholders that come with the Leo are simply inline blade fuse holders with no means of mounting them any which way. As i had to replace the fuseholders, i bought some i could mount and they came with a natty little mounting bracket :

There's a nice little dimple in the bulkhead that you can just about see behind the bracket - this is for something on a different model (fuel filter i think) so i whacked a self-drilling screw through it then secured the bracket with a longer self-tapper. The fuse holders simply clipped on the front when it was secure.

Now for the easy connections! The solenoid on the vapouriser needs crimped connectors that push on (Lucar type) which made this part easier :

My phone went flat about then so no more pics for now but apart from the cable for the tank solenoid and the fuel contents, that's pretty much it for the hard work!

Had a bit of a false start as during testing, the fuse blew for the outputs on the Leo. Traced this to a faulty solenoid coil on the vap - luckily had a spare bbut i now have another vap with no solenoid coil!

Anyway, by this time i was shattered, i had proved it ran on gas and i needed coffee, dinner, more coffee, shower, sleep etc. Didn't quite happen in that order and i ended up giving it all a tweak with the laptop about 930 friday evening and got it very close to spot-on (idle a whisker rich) and went to bed. Saturday morning i refitted the air intake trunking and did a couple of other last minute jobs. then took it for a nice long drive.

On the way back, i filled up with gas and found the only leak i wasn't able to test for (tested by using a washing up liquid solution in a plant sprayer - if bubbles appear, there's a leak!) on the fill pipe on the bit between where i connected the fill pipe to the filler. I may need to renew the filler to fix this, i'll have a look tomorrow (weather permitting) and see if i can fix the leak. Won't be able to check it until i next fill up though as the only way of pressurising the fill pipe i have is on the LPG pump - it only leaked when the tank was near full, dropping spots of LPG on the cold concrete where it spat and fizzled like water hitting a hot frying pan!

I suppose you all want to know how it drives on gas now? Well apart from the first changeover (where the pipes pressurise), the changeover wasn't obvious unless i looked at the switch to see the LEDs change and performance was as near to the same on gas as petrol as makes no odds. Maybe if i did several timed 0-100 runs, some on gas, others on petrol, there might be a little difference but in all honesty, it's no different in real terms. Maybe the engine is quieter and the gearchanges smoother but that could be my imagination.

The big difference is paying 50.9p/L instead of 118.9p/L - £2.31/gallon instead of £5.40/gallon! Once i de-cat it as well (which i can do legally now as part of the conversion) then it should improve economy and power a bit as well.

Once i get the chance to do a proper set-up on the laptop i'll get a vid of how it's running etc - meanwhile i'm a happy bunny!

[Mazda Man]

Fair play Dave....Personally I wouldn't have a clue where to even start, let alone start cutting wires.    If you've got a dash cam, perhaps upload a video of a drive with gas and without-gas? 

[Laird_Scooby]

I don't have a dash-cam Geoff and to be honest, it would really only show different views of the Suffolk countryside.

As for the cutting of wires etc, it's a necessary evil when doing something like this. Luckily i had access to the original Rover workshop manuals for the diagrams so was able to find the wires relatively easily - i did consider making the connections under the drivers seat  close to where the PGM-Fi ECU is but firstly it was much easier to connect under the bonnet and secondly it would have meant making a sub-loom to link between the drivers seat area and engine bay. This would have potentially involved more joints or a multiplug, all of which introduce potential problem areas.

On the agenda today is sorting the fuel gauge, there are several different options and it appears i picked the wrong one whilst programming. Easily sorted thankfully! Then maybe i'll get on with the fine-tuning and the video from that.

However, rain has stopped play once again so the fuel gauge, ill-pipe leak and final tuning will have to wait until it's dry again!

[Mazda Man]

^^^^ Haven't got a Scooby Doo what you just said Dave but sounds good to me. 

[Laird_Scooby]

Basically Geoff, i could have connected direct to the engine management ECU under the drivers seat but it would have been a lot more hassle than connecting under the bonnet. Could also cause a lot more potential problems with the extra run of cables, joins etc necessary to do it that way.

One big problem i have is finding a home for the LPG switch. The original idea was to fit it in the coin tray to the right of the steering wheel as i don't use it for anything. However, there's a reason i don't use it, i can't see it sat in the drivers seat so forget it's there!

At the moment i have the cable running in through the panel gaps and the switch literally resting in the coin tray but it's hard to check the status of things with it there. Another thought is to extend the cables from inside the switch to the status LEDs and mount them somewhere visible (say inside the fuel gauge) and then put the switch somewhere hidden - a lot of work though, perhaps save that job for the Galactic Dawn Project!

I plan on removing the passenger IED aka airbag (already removed the drivers one as can be seen above ) and fitting a custom-built shelf/instrument pod with a voltmeter and vacuum gauge, possibly an oil pressure gauge too and i'm sure i could find room for the LPG switch there and the low coolant warning light as there is a sensor for low coolant on the Volvo tank that will ultimately be fitted.

Meanwhile i think i'll leave it "temporarily installed" in the coon tray and see how i get on with it there. There are a total of 7 LEDs on the switch, five for fuel level (1 red = low fuel, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 green LEDs) and two more for the status, one yellow and one red. The red one is for petrol operation and the yellow one flashes while it's waiting to change over then goes steady on gas and the red petrol one goes out. There are some bi-colour LEDs available that have 2 LED chips inside, one red and one green. Because of their construction, the red and green together produce yellow so if i used one of these to replace the two fuel status LEDs i would get red on petrol, red/yellow flashing while waiting to change to gas then green on gas. Kind of like that idea!

I also have another idea that involves the headlamp aim switch found on later cars in place of the coin tray. Watch this space to see what my brain cell comes up with!

[Retro Rich]

Goodness me Dave! Going some on this project aren't you  Glutton for punishment!

[Laird_Scooby]

Thanks Rich - it's more or less done now, still needs some tweaking/fine-tuning as it's running a little lean in places and i need to make the bracket/heat-shield for the Leo unit and a couple of other minor niggles/last minute details.

The big challenge will be fitting the LPG conversion to the Sterling aka Project Galactic Dawn. The aim there will be to integrate it so it actually looks factory, i also have an idea about fitting a slightly different type of mixer or if i can find the right one, an SGi system - Sequential Gas Injection system instead of a single point mixer.

Time will tell on that one, for now i'll keep the idea of a single point mixer on the Sterling working from the tank forwards and if a multipoint SGi system turns up along the way, it's a relatively easy job to change the front end as long as i haven't gone too far. The main differences will be a reducer instead of vapouriser and 6 injectors and a different gas ECU for the SGi system - when i say reducer instead of vapouriser, they both do the same basic job, however the vapouriser allows gas to be "sucked" out by manifold airflow through the mixer, the reducer is still pressurised (usually about 1.0 - 1.2 bar i think, i need to check) to "push" the gas out via the injectors. Also the SGi system taps into the OE injectors (the better systems have a "plug'n'play" injector loom) to not only provide injector emulation (not needed on the C27 but won't be a problem having it) but mimic the OE fuel map from the PGM-Fi system.

[Retro Rich]

You're a very brave man Dave  To do BIG one off jobs like this takes a lot of stamina. I'm only partially following the technicalities. You'll be laughing all the way to the bank when you've pulled it off!

[Laird_Scooby]

Thanks Rich - some would say mad rather than brave but i got there in the end!

It was all worth it on saturday filling up at 50.9p/L instead of 118.9p/L though! To put that into perspective, a 43.5L fill up (59L water capacity tank, will only fill to 80% on gas so 48L maximum) came out at £22 and a few odd pennies.

One drawback is there aren't that many LPG filling stations round here - BP used to sell LPG but sadly discontinued it last year so no more Nectar points on fuel! Meanwhile the nearest station for me is about 12 miles away, next nearest is about 20-22 miles, dependnig on the route.

Just means i either need to plan my route better or take a detour to fill up.