V6 Newbie Project

[PTR200S]

I would suggest that you get the basics done first, like tightening the drivers seat ( you will feel a lot of floatiness from that !) Vibration can come from all sorts of sources, is yours through the steering wheel? Can you feel it at all times?

The other point you make is the "bouncy , floaty feeling... you say the springs are ok and the "shocks" ok... i presume you mean the dampers due to the bounce test.. if you have a floaty feeling it is almost certain that the dampers have failed or one at least..however, this can be just part of the problem as all the front suspension and associated linkages can contribute.

Can you get it tested on a proper mot mechanical testing ramp where the front end is "bounced" to enable the tester to see what is going on?

Failing that the shocks need to come off and the springs removed to check the dampers properly.

The other thing that you point to is the edges of the tyres wearing, this is incorrect suspension setting, like toe in settings for instance...or possibly those wheels you have with the wrong offset.. what size tyres are you running? Anything below 55 profile will increase vibrations,,, 35/ 40 profile and you will feel the harshness using standard shocks. Too wide a tyre, for the rim, can also give a floaty feel. If you are running plus 18" wheels too you will feel the road more on standard shocks.

Can you get hold of some standard wheels and try those?

For me, you have too many variables at the moment so start with the easy stuff, seat mounts, wheels, mot bench check, before moving onto pulling shocks and other components apart.

 

[Laird_Scooby]

I have to agree with much of what you've said Pete but the big clue for me (and i suspect Stu as well) is the fact the floatiness gets worse with speed. Knackered shocks (or dampers if you prefer) can also lead to odd wear patterns but he had the wheel alignment done recently as far as i remember so that should be ok. I say "should" as look at the grief i had with my Volvo when it was allegedly set correctly! It's a smidge out now following renewal of the bottom ball joints but nothing like it was before i did it myself with the laser tracking gadget.

Wheel alignment can cause odd feelings through the steering as well obviously but it could equally as easily be tyre pressures. Again, non-standard wheels/tyres could add to that effect. However he's been complaining of this for some time now and i think before the wheels/tyres were changed.

[PTR200S]

Yep, you are quite right, there are two distinct problems as Kag8 states, one is vibration and the other is floaty bouncy feeling....

I agree, for me too, the dampers ( I tend to go with shocks as the complete spring and damper combined !)  are a big, and likely, possibility along with maybe incorrectly set alignment . The tyre wear on the outer edge says "toe in or out" to me especially if the wear has come on quickly but once again knackered dampers can play a part but wear is shown over a longer period of time.

The other concern is the linkages / alignment, the garage cocked up once.... 

but I would still be fixing seat mountings etc 

 

[kag8]

19 hours ago, Laird_Scooby said:

Does the front end feel vague and floaty at speed and the car seems to change lanes on the motorway without any steering input from you?

Very vague yes. I have to grip the steering really tight and concentrate hard. Not as bad as changing lanes automatically but almost as you describe.

18 hours ago, hughezee said:

I agree with what Dave suggests, my shocks felt fine but after replacing them along with new springs it was worlds better, excluding the improved handling. I notice it in other aged cars, you can tell the shockers are just tired the crashy feel and high speeds it pitches in dips almost like being on a boat.

Another vote for new shocks and springs.  

 

11 hours ago, PTR200S said:

I would suggest that you get the basics done first, like tightening the drivers seat ( you will feel a lot of floatiness from that !) Vibration can come from all sorts of sources, is yours through the steering wheel? Can you feel it at all times?

The driver seat, was me clutching at straws I think. The vibration comes from the steering wheel. Bounciness is from the car overall. I tried to check for loose bolts on the seat but couldn't find any. This service manual (https://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/files/tsb/a03-032.pdf) suggests I have to remove the whole seat and replace a bracket which I would need to order in but other forums have other tricks to fix using larger washers etc..I've driven the car with me pushing back on the seat as hard as I can while sat in it lol to keep it steady and can still feel the vibration in the wheel and the whole car overall.

11 hours ago, PTR200S said:

The other thing that you point to is the edges of the tyres wearing, this is incorrect suspension setting, like toe in settings for instance...or possibly those wheels you have with the wrong offset.. what size tyres are you running? Anything below 55 profile will increase vibrations,,, 35/ 40 profile and you will feel the harshness using standard shocks. Too wide a tyre, for the rim, can also give a floaty feel. If you are running plus 18" wheels too you will feel the road more on standard shocks.

225/40 on 18s. I expected a harsher ride due to the lowish profile tyres, but even on delicious brand new roads?

11 hours ago, PTR200S said:

For me, you have too many variables at the moment so start with the easy stuff, seat mounts, wheels, mot bench check, before moving onto pulling shocks and other components apart.

You are the voice of reason haha, my fingers itchin to pull the trigger and order new shocks and lowering springs

 

11 hours ago, PTR200S said:

Can you get hold of some standard wheels and try those?

Unfortunately I sold the standard wheels already. And I had them on for a couple of weeks when I got the car and I remember feeling that vibration and complaining about it. There was also a pull to the left when coasting to a lower speed. With the new balanced wheels the vibration at speeds above 55mph had gone (it was very pronounced before) but now I'm noticing it again, lighter at low speeds, more at higher speeds. Above 90mph its ridiculous. The pull doesn't exist anymore though.

11 hours ago, Laird_Scooby said:

Knackered shocks (or dampers if you prefer) can also lead to odd wear patterns but he had the wheel alignment done recently as far as i remember so that should be ok.

Only done a wheel balancing on all 4 new wheels, not alignment. The wear on outer edge of both front wheels is very rapid for newish tyres. I felt it again today and is 'feathered' wear on the outer edges. Tyre pressure is at 34psi, too high? The door sticker states 32psi and I believe my tyres can be filled up to almost 50psi, not that I would fill it that high. Any lower than 30psi and the front wheels look flat plus I risk bending the rims on bumps and potholes.

 

10 hours ago, PTR200S said:

The tyre wear on the outer edge says "toe in or out" to me especially if the wear has come on quickly but once again knackered dampers can play a part but wear is shown over a longer period of time.

The wear has come in very quickly. Isn't it almost compulsory to align the car after changing suspension components? Would feel like a waste to do an alignment without changing any suspension bits.

[Mangoman]

Hi Kag88.

Have been watching this thread with interest.

First the Seat. I know not your major concern but I would get this rectified. Theoretically a lose Seat is an MOT fail, or can be. Not only that but if the anchoring points are faulty this could lead to the Seat  collapsing backward in the event of a Rear End collision - hence the MOT fail theory.

The rapid wear on the tyre outer shoulders, this is definitely incorrect geometry/alignment. This could be through either incorrect tracking, (Toe-In) or badly worn Track Rod Ends, resulting in the same behaviour/result. (This could also the cause of the Vibration - rubbing of the outside edge along the road surface...???).

The Vibration. Along with previous 'maybe', Remove all the Wheels and make sure they are all seating flush. A wheel not seated nice and flush can cause vibration. Another thing is check that the Tyres are all seated correctly on the Bead, sometimes after a tyre has been fitted it might not have 'Popped' into position on the Rim. You might have heard this when having Tyres fitted. 

The 'Tramlining' effect, ie car wanting to follow grooves or undulations can be caused by incorrect Offset Wheels fitted which will be compounded by the incorrect alignment. Also some tyres are more prone to doing this. I had this really bad on my MR2. Fitted different Tyres - all better.... Strange one I know,

Other than that I really cannot suggest anything else I'm afraid - sorry.

I hope you get it sorted soon though - for your own safety.....

Ciao, Bill.

[Laird_Scooby]

6 minutes ago, Mangoman said:

The 'Tramlining' effect, ie car wanting to follow grooves or undulations can be caused by incorrect Offset Wheels fitted which will be compounded by the incorrect alignment.

It can indeed Bill or it can also be because the tyres are too wide - just for information as i know others have 18" wheels and similar size tyres without any such problems.

Again this points to shocks and/or tracking if they tyres aren't the problem.

Very valid point about the vibration, i've known a bit of grit between the wheel and hub cause this, even with the nuts done up tight.

I'm more worried about the vague feeling at speed though.................

[Mangoman]

27 minutes ago, Laird_Scooby said:

 

I'm more worried about the vague feeling at speed though.................

This can also be the effect of Toe-In... As you go faster the Tyre tends to 'Balloon' lifting the edges, or shoulders up off the road causing what I refer to as the 'Shopping-Trolley' effect... And what with the vibration you're lucky if 2 or 3 inches are touching the road at all! I used to get the same feel in my Karmann Ghia at anything over 70mph...! Until I dumped a 25 kilo bag of cement in where the Spare should go...

[PTR200S]

2 hours ago, kag8 said:

Only done a wheel balancing on all 4 new wheels, not alignment. The wear on outer edge of both front wheels is very rapid for newish tyres. I felt it again today and is 'feathered' wear on the outer edges. 

Definitely think you need to start here after you saying that re the wear follows what we have been thinking, the other guys are all working down the same route, Bill, Dave and Stu all saying same re the wear so first stop is to get the tracking done and give it another test ride.

Once that is eliminated then you can move onto the next problem  FIX that seat !! Like Bill says Mot failure if they pick it up.

[Laird_Scooby]

There's quite a sizeable weight in the front of the Accord Coupé Bill!

If it is toeing in too far (or even toeing out too far) then yes it cause that but it tends to be a bit vague and wandery before 90mph

[PTR200S]

Quite right re the weight but that just adds to the wear problem too, it would do no harm to get the tracking checked as Kag8 says it has not been done,,, so that would confirm your theory re when the original wheels were still on the problem was still there....

Still think the wheels are part of the rough /vibration though... maybe one is ovaled.....

[kag8]

Just got home from work and checked under the car (not raised the car up yet) but grabbed hold of every part I could under the front. This part had a bit of play:

I could sort of rotate it. Slight but enough to make a sound.

On the passenger side it moved less but still made a slight sound.

Is that the tie rod end? Should it be solidly tight or have some play? Could it be the cause or one of the causes?

Bill and PRT (is it Paul or Peter? Sorry) I'll respond to your latest posts asap (thanks) just writing this from my phone then going to get some food to eat, starving!

[kag8]

1 hour ago, PTR200S said:

Still think the wheels are part of the rough /vibration though... maybe one is ovaled.....

Could be. But i pray its not

[Mangoman]

Yes, that is the Steering Rack/Rod. This is connected to the Track Rod Ends at the Wheel - shouldn't swivel by hand or make a noise in my opinion.

[kag8]

35 minutes ago, Mangoman said:

Yes, that is the Steering Rack/Rod. This is connected to the Track Rod Ends at the Wheel - shouldn't swivel by hand or make a noise in my opinion.

Thanks mate.

The movement is very slight, although the driver side moving more than the passenger hints at something wrong anyway. And it makes a slight sound when I rotate it with force.

What are the part numbers for them? Anything else attached to the tie rod ends or related parts that should be changed too? 

This garage I went to seem incompetent. I asked them to check out the whole suspension when I took it in for the drop links.

[Mangoman]

I would go to another garage and get them to check it. It would be pointless to get alignment done with faulty Steering Parts. In fact any place that offers to do alignment without checking first is not worth going to, because no matter what they do will be a waste of money.

Also another thing you can check is lock the Steering Wheel and with the Wheel jacked up see it you can move the Wheel from side to side. If it moves without the Steering Wheel moving indicates there is a fault. Or if there is a clunking.

Get it checked before you buy any parts.

[kag8]

13 minutes ago, Mangoman said:

Also another thing you can check is lock the Steering Wheel and with the Wheel jacked up see it you can move the Wheel from side to side. If it moves without the Steering Wheel moving indicates there is a fault. Or if there is a clunking.

Thanks mate. Would that indicate the tie rod end is bad or another part?

Seems so weird that such a small play in this piece could cause that much vibration but I guess its just one of the issues I have that contributes to it.

[Laird_Scooby]

Have a look at this :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_joint

Quite a good explanation in there.

To check your track rod ends, start the car and turn the steering to full lock. Holding it at full lock, switch off. Go to the wheel where the track rod end is now visible and get someone to shake the steering wheel left-right rapidly. You'll be able to see/hear/feel any excess play in the track rod end. Do the same the other side.

FYI, the reason you can turn it is so the tracking/wheel alignment can be adjusted. You'll see the track rod end screws onto the ends of the steering rack and how far it screws on alters the wheel alignment. You can't adjust it by eye, you need special optical equipment to do it. This explains wheel alignment, also known as toe setting :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_(automotive)

A little bit of adjustment goes a long way at the wheel so any play in the track rod end will give a significant effect on how the car drives.

[kag8]

Thank you.

I have rung a few garages to enquire about wheel alignment prices.

Although I will insist on a thorough check of the suspension components before the alignment is done.

I have also orderered spigot rings since my alloys have a slightly larger wheel bore size 73.1mm and I believe the coupe has 64.1mm. I have read the online debates and many say it doesnt do anything but others have sworn it got rid of the high speed vibration for them so I just thought why not give it a shot. Not expecting it to solve the problem on its own but hopefully make it better. The rings are only a few quid anyway and will get the garage to fit them on when doing the tyre rotation and re-balancing since im paranoid about a bent front wheel.

Other news, my power steering is acting up. Makes a loud whining and grinding noise when the bonnet is open and steering turned either side. Almost certain its not the belt as I can feel it in the pipes vibration or struggling to push the fluid around and the reservoir bubbles. Only when turning the steering wheel.

How much steering fluid will I need to do part changes until its almost all new? Im intending to use genuine honda liquid of course.

Another odd thing I noticed was, whilst the ticking noise from engine is a very common phenomenon and my coupe has it, it also has a very faint ticking noise AFTER switching off the engine. Almost for like a minute after. Fan was not spinning. Im curious as to what could cause that sound???

[Mangoman]

Hi.

Right. A shame you didn't mention this before about the Centre Bore size difference....

I would say that I'm 99% sure the cause of the Vibration would be this. Spigot Rings are a must on Wheels that have differing C/B's!

As far as the Changes on the Steering Fluid about a litre will suffice at about 250ml per change. I used a Syringe to suction out the contents.

I, amongst others here, under advisement have used this product. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LUCAS-POWER-STEERING-FLUID-WITH-CONDITIONER-10442-473-ml-/252850459999?hash=item3adf0fd55f:g:-YQAAOSweW5VQ44B (2 Bottles).

I didn't have a noticeable problem with mine, but I changed anyway.

Can't help you with the ticking, sorry. (Mine doesn't do it).

Ciao.

 

[Laird_Scooby]

Couldn't have put it better about the spigot rings Bill!

They are an absolute necessity if the centre bore of the wheel is larger than the hub. People seem to think the wheel nuts hold the wheel central to the hub - THEY DO NOT!!!!! All they do is prevent the wheel falling off! What holds the wheel central is the centre bore and if that is compromised then you've got problems! In the first instance they will cause increased wear between the nut and the wheel and vibration from the wheel not being centrally mounted on the hub - you can balance them until you're blue in the face and it won't make a scrap of difference!

When you fit the spigot rings (hope you got the aluminium ones and not the el-cheapo, prone to cracking plastic things? ) make sure the hub is really clean with a wire brush and smear some copper grease on before fitting to firstly help them slide on and secondly prevent electrolytic corrosion from starting.

As for the ticking, without hearing it then it's virtually impossible to say what it is but it could be the exhaust system cooling down - usually an irregular ticking sound although fairly regular when first switched off.

[Mangoman]

Yes Dave, I thought Exhaust.... But this is usually when new,

Best way to check that is to just start, idle for a few seconds and switch off. If no Ticking it could be Exhaust related. Now try the same thing again after you've been driving for some time. Ticking - Exhaust...  (Usually).

[PTR200S]

Ah, yes, spigot rings,  gives same problem as i mentioned re the ovaled wheels, vibration and odd feel to the ride.  Concur with Bill  and Dave on this and Bill is quite right re bushes etc check before tracking done...

You definitely need to go through everything piece by piece.... 

[PTR200S]

Kag8 there some threads re power steering on here,  the part fluid change regime is definetly worth following.  unless you are confident enough to drop it all , then do the same again few hundred miles down the road. 

Lucas fluid about 9 quid genuine stuff about 12 quid litre 

[kag8]

11 hours ago, Mangoman said:

Right. A shame you didn't mention this before about the Centre Bore size difference....

Sorry guys

I completely forgot about it and its only after many hours of searching online that I came across someone post that as a solution then I remembered that I didn't have them fitted on. Have never had them on any of my other cars before so didn't really consider it as a contributing factor.

I ordered the aluminium ones (ebay 142079893050) and they have arrived very quickly. Look very good quality too. Unfortunately they are the wrong size for my wheels! I ordered them having referred to the invoice the original owner of these wheels passed on to me which showed a center bore size of 73.1mm (which is almost universal for after market alloys) in the specs, but it is actually smaller...going to have to return them and place an order for the correct size after measuring it properly.

11 hours ago, Laird_Scooby said:

In the first instance they will cause increased wear between the nut and the wheel and vibration from the wheel not being centrally mounted on the hub - you can balance them until you're blue in the face and it won't make a scrap of difference!

Would the lack of spigot rings cause faster wear on the outer edge though? I think I have a bigger issue, suspension wise. Anyway will get it checked out properly this weekend, fingers crossed it can be identified and sorted.

 

11 hours ago, Mangoman said:

Best way to check that is to just start, idle for a few seconds and switch off. If no Ticking it could be Exhaust related. Now try the same thing again after you've been driving for some time. Ticking - Exhaust...  (Usually).

Thanks. It is my frankenstein exhaust. Which also seems to be getting new leaks everyday now. Really need to get a whole new setup.

 

11 hours ago, PTR200S said:

Lucas fluid about 9 quid genuine stuff about 12 quid litre 

Thanks. Went for genuine at £14, missed out on the deal you had posted. Lucas was half the size though so would have needed 2 bottles. Looking for a syringe now, hopefully will find one to collect over weekend and do a part change.

[Laird_Scooby]

Syringe for you - i had to use different tubing as the stuff mine came with had fluted internal walls on the tubing causing air leaks :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009LEEOVW

As for the clicking, if it's just a few seconds it could be the idle stepper motor if yours has one - got brain drain tonight and the brain cell isn't fully functional so if that's a rookie mistake my apologies!

Exhaust is probably favourite though - the one on my Volvo still clicks and ticks about half hour after switching off sometimes!

20 minutes ago, kag8 said:

Would the lack of spigot rings cause faster wear on the outer edge though?

Quite possibly - if the wheel is moving inward at the bottom slightly because it's not perfectly square/central to the wheel this could cause it. Get the spigot rings fitted before having any alignment or whatever else done as that could put it out otherwise. Also if the wheels/tyres are appreciably wider and/or have a different offset from stock, this could alter the "ideal" toe setting. Stu may have a figure for the optimum toe setting for wider wheels/tyres or different offsets if you ask him nicely!