Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 3, 2015 Moderators Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 A bit of scene setting to start with as it will make the rest of the post make a lot more sense - bear with me a moment! I've had my Sterling 7 years and it's always started first touch of the starter, sometimes i've turned the ignition on and waited for the PGM-Fi light to go out to prime the fuel system (on an extra cold day) but most of the time i haven't needed to. The coupe on the other hand has rarely, if ever, started that easily in the 18 months i've owned it. It has always insisted on spinning on the starter for a few seconds, switch off then turn the key again and it starts like the Sterling always used to, first touch of the starter. Now the Sterling has suddenly decided it wants to spin over for a few seconds, be switched off, turn the key again and it fires first touch of the starter. I've tried it at all fuel tank levels as well from empty to brim full. Not tried the coupe above 3/4 tank but felt it unnecessary now the Sterling is suddenly doing it too. Obviously both cars are well maintained and have had recent fuel filters, oil/filter changes etc etc and the PGM-Fi relay has been resoldered in both. Both cars pull cleanly through the rev range too and while i consider the coupe gutless compared to the Sterling, it still produces at least standard performance and cracks 0-60 in under 8 seconds. Just mentioning that to show both cars perform as (or better than) they should so whatever the problem is, it is only on the very first start of the day, unless it's a very cold day and then sometimes it will do the same trick twice in the same day. One other point, the Sterling battery is only a year old and still has 3 years guarantee on it. The coupe battery was second hand but from the date code is about the same age (maybe a little older) and both cars turn over briskly. In fact, on occasions of lack of use, the Sterling has still started easily even when it didn't turn over that quickly! So it's a bit of a puzzling one! Open to all and any suggestions as long as they're sensible. Got a few ideas and theories to back them but would like other ideas to think on as well, just in case my ideas are in fact a lot less likely than they currently seem. Looking forward to some ideas here guys - aka HELP!!!! It's not stopping me driving the cars but is incredibly annoying when i know both should start as soon as look at them, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted February 4, 2015 Administrators Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 No DTC's present but replacing the crank position sensor or Ignition coil have solved a few cold starting niggles for me on 4th-5th Generation Accords Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 4, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Forgot that bit - no, there are no DTCs on either car. If it turns out that it's most likely the crankshaft sensor (never understood why they fit it to the front cam yet call it the crank sensor) i'm not sure where i'll get it from, even if i can afford it at the time. Rimmers are saying NLA, allbrit.de are saying "email for availability" and http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SD411&block_02=E__1100&block_03=21350are saying "Contact us". I seem to recall spotting the sensors in the parts list available from someone like Front Line or Blue Print - any thoughts/ideas Stu? Some of the ideas i was having are a poor earth on the starter, a lazy starter, faulty ignition switch or if there is one, a faulty relay that feeds the coil or maybe even the igniter. Maybe while i'm doing the cam belt on the coupe i'll clean the crank sensor and check the cabling. Might have to invest in either a hand-held oscilloscope or make use of the USB sound card stick i bought for the purpose of turning my laptop into a 'scope. Meanwhile i have a spare igniter so i'll give that a try this morning and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 4, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Well it's not the igniter. I have a spare coil so i'll give that a try tomorrow and/or friday and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted February 4, 2015 Administrators Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 good man, keep us posted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 4, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Will do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverussia Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hello! First of all look at fuel pressure regulator and IAT sensor. p.s. sorry for my terrible english. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 5, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi, your English is fine, certainly much better than my Russian! There are no fault codes showing so for the time being i'm assuming all sensors are fine but i will check them at some point. Both the items you mention are in a tricky place to get at so i'm looking for the simple stuff first before i start changing the complicated, expensive stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted February 5, 2015 Administrators Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hello! First of all look at fuel pressure regulator and IAT sensor. p.s. sorry for my terrible english. Привет там, спасибо за комментарий и ваш английский велик, не стесняйтесь мириться ни одной фотографии Вашего автомобиля и не забудьте поздороваться с другими членами Приветствия Стю Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 5, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Привет там, спасибо за комментарий и ваш английский велик, не стесняйтесь мириться ни одной фотографии Вашего автомобиля и не забудьте поздороваться с другими членами Приветствия Стю Выпендриваться !!! Isn't Google Translate wonderful!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators hughezee Posted February 5, 2015 Administrators Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Google Translate is good but not brilliant, doesn’t recognise all the words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 6, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 It recognises more words than i do!!! I just about know Njet, Da and Tovaritsch and not even sure i spelled those correctly! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverussia Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Hi, your English is fine, certainly much better than my Russian! There are no fault codes showing so for the time being i'm assuming all sensors are fine but i will check them at some point. Both the items you mention are in a tricky place to get at so i'm looking for the simple stuff first before i start changing the complicated, expensive stuff. Hi! Hi! Thanks a lot! IAT sensor have a wide temperature range so if IAT sensor work wrong, PGM-FI ECU have no information for IAT sensor fault. Emergency lamp blink when sensor is damaged: short circuit or open circuit. For example today weather in Moscow is -7c, but if wrong worked IAT give +17c - ECU prepare poor mix that may be the cause bad cold start at first time. Pressure regulator may be tested (approx) with partner who must limit pressure after regulator but pressure meter is better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 6, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Right, that's it, i'm moving to Moscow - it's warmer there than here! Regarding the IAT sensor, i get what you're saying but i don't think it will effect the cold starting. It is used my the PGM-Fi to alter injection time with the engine running and from what i can make out from the Rover WSM (WorkShop Manual) is ignored by the ECU on start up. The CTS (Coolant Temperature Sensor) is more likely to be the problem as it alters the injection time during warm up. Both sensors are tested with the engine hot (according to the WSM, after the cooling fan has cut in at least once) and the IAT should be between 1 to 4 ohms and the CTS 200 to 400 ohms. However, the way the car drives suggests neither sensor is faulty and is still giving good economy. That said, next time i use the car and get the engine warm enough to test the sensors i will do that. Another possibility crossed my mind this morning. I recently had problems with condensation in the fuel tank. I got rid of the condensation (or most of it) by adding methylated spirits to the petrol in the tank. This mixes with the water, emulsifies and is then burnt off taking the water with it. As we've had some sub-zero temperatures recently there is the possibility that some water still exists in the fuel system and froze at some point in the pipework causing a blockage. As the fuel started flowing from the pump it would help to melt this ice blockage. I'll see how it starts today as i found something yesterday that may have been a problem, if it doesn't improve there is now something else to check as well so i'll do that if needs be and then retest tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverussia Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 It recognises more words than i do!!! I just about know Njet, Da and Tovaritsch and not even sure i spelled those correctly! Absolutly! But this is not enough. Keywords are needed - "vodka"! "Vodka" - The Tower of Babel is the Russian language. - Tovaritsch, vodka? - Da! And all that to break the ice. Whoever drinks of vodka with Russian automatically understands Russian. Maybe not after the first bottle. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverussia Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 As we've had some sub-zero temperatures recently there is the possibility that some water still exists in the fuel system and froze at some point in the pipework causing a blockage. As the fuel started flowing from the pump it would help to melt this ice blockage. And if you start the engine using an alternative container with clean fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 6, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 That won't happen anytime soon - as you probably know the fuel pump is mounted in the tank so any contaminated fuel is going to be between the pump and the fuel pressure regulator. To flush that out before starting on a fresh fuel supply will be near impossible. However tomorrow i'm going to try jump starting it with a booster pack. The battery is only a year old and under warranty so the battery isn't in question. What is in question is if the starter motor is getting lazy and pulling excessive current which will reduce the available voltage for starting. I've known this to cause similar problems on many other cars so it's worth looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverussia Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 That won't happen anytime soon - as you probably know the fuel pump is mounted in the tank so any contaminated fuel is going to be between the pump and the fuel pressure regulator. To flush that out before starting on a fresh fuel supply will be near impossible. An alternative way to give fuel into the engine bypassing the main line. Better to use any fuel pump with needed pressure. Be careful of fuel leaks! Risk of fire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 6, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Thanks for the idea - i'll try a few of the other possibilities first, don't fancy a flame grilled Sterling! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverussia Posted February 6, 2015 Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Thanks for the idea - i'll try a few of the other possibilities first, don't fancy a flame grilled Sterling! No-no-no! Safety first! I would like to ask you, PL5 gearbox in your car is a factory or overhaul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 6, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 As far as i know, both cars are on their original gearboxes. The Sterling has done just under 110,000 miles (180,000 km) and the coupe has done 140,000 miles (220,000 km) and both are still fine. Does that answer your question or have i misunderstood what you were asking? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 7, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Last night i charged up my booster pack and connected it to the Sterling for the first start - still no change. Next thing to try is a spare coil i have, that will be tomorrows test. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverussia Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 As far as i know, both cars are on their original gearboxes. The Sterling has done just under 110,000 miles (180,000 km) and the coupe has done 140,000 miles (220,000 km) and both are still fine. Does that answer your question or have i misunderstood what you were asking? Instruction manual only G4 no PL5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Laird_Scooby Posted February 7, 2015 Author Moderators Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Unless i'm mistaken your car has the PL5 auto box as well. As far as i'm aware, the only automatic gearbox ever fitted to any 827 was the PL5, regardless of market/country it was destined for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverussia Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Last night i charged up my booster pack and connected it to the Sterling for the first start - still no change. Next thing to try is a spare coil i have, that will be tomorrows test. Ignition coil is work or not. I learn PGM-FI manual, IAT sensor is engaged at cold start. You can connect a variable resistor to IAT sensor for test. May be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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